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Notjitsu Oct 31, 2006 8:33pm

More Micro NL Thoughts
 
I've been thinking more about micro NL, and the assertion that standard ABC TAG is the way to go. And here's just something to think about.

You are sitting at your 10 NL table. And in a shocking move, the greatest No Limit player in the world sits down. This guy knows everything their is to possibly know about NL poker, and he's looking to play the best that he possibly can at this table. (which is basically the best possible way to play).

Do you think he plays ABC Tag? Do you think the guy who knows everything there is, and how to play as profitably as possible against any opposition is going to choose a style that basically anyone who's read a beginner's poker book is familiar with?

I would wager the answer is no. Why? Because the perfect game would push all the edges to the limit, and ABC Tag is basically being content with the easy obvious edges that are handed to you on a platter. And ignores the less obvious edges you are given, and doesn't even try for edges that you have to create/work for.

And this is what makes me cringe a little whenever I hear the phrase "Grind it out" in regards to a NL game.

If you are "grinding it out" playing ABC Tag at Micro NL, you might as well just quit now. I predict a boring, unfulfiling, and marginally successful poker career at best (mostly depending on how ABC Tag your ABC Tag actually is).

Why say that? Because if you accept that the greatest poker player in the world would bring a lot more than the most rudimentary generic game to the table, then playing ABC Tag is basically accepting that you could be a hell of a lot better but instead of striving to find those extra edges, you'd rather play a style of poker that you have now labeled "Boring" and "Non-optimal".

The moral of this story being that you can kill two birds with one stone. Optimizing your play leads to playing more hands and playing them in a more exciting manner, and is more profitable. More money...more fun.

And whatever you do, don't settle for the game you have. If the best players in the world are constantly adding and subtracting things from their game, I think its safe to say us small time no limit players probably could do with a little change in our own.

theonlythree Oct 31, 2006 8:48pm

Quote:

If you are "grinding it out" playing ABC Tag at Micro NL, you might as well just quit now.
But I've made $400 doing that since March. You can play TAG in micro limits and win, as long as you're patient. People pay off hands all the time.

And if we're talking about micro-limit stud, anything BUT TAG is a losing strategy. Every single hand goes to showdown.

1idjack Oct 31, 2006 8:56pm

it's been said that you can only play as well as the people you play against. for example, if you categorize poker players by their skill level in a 1-10 rating, a level 5 can only play against a level 4 and be profitable. reasoning behind this is, and i'll use your best poker player in the world example, your average player isn't going to be aware of the more complex styles of play he brings to the table. if you can't make people fold their marginal hands against your monsters, how do you hope to increase your win rate? i might play marginal hands against people who know how to play, but if donk A is going to call you all in with A/rag vs your pair, you better learn to play better cards than him. hope that made sense

Boomer2k6 Oct 31, 2006 9:00pm

If I read the OP correctly it seems to suggest that ABC TAG will win in these games but is rarely optimal and certainly not when people are making errors as large as they do at micros.

Generally the reccomendation to play ABC TAG is an "easy answer" for most people and will, as you've proven, more often that not lead to beating the game. Additionally it may not be that wise to instruct a newcomer to the game on playing LAG without him/her donking off the majority of his/her bankroll due to getting the harder desicions spectacularly wrong. NLHE: Theory and Practice has a great section where they distiguish teh difference between a LAG like Phil Ivey and your dime a dozen wannabe LAGs who lose their shirts.

I'm not one to talk as I was tighter than a fish's backside on Friday but then again I'm more comfortable in a different form of the game where I feel i have a distinct advantage on the field, ergo I didn't try and "loosen up" in hands where I didn't know where I was. You, by now, probably have that advantage too in your NL game and you can push it further and thereby make it more profitable and fun.

re: vs certain player ratings. Change your game based on who you're playing. You can't just have one type of game in your locker. If your opponents are weak-tight, Bluff More, Raise more, if they're calling stations bluff less and value bets more. You're correct in saying that the players will most likely be too "ignorant" to fall for tricky moves but there may be a couple of players at the table who WILL fall for it. Sometimes it's right to be ABC. It's very rarely right to be ABC 100% of the time.

acehole_76 Oct 31, 2006 9:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notjitsu (Post 362569)
I've been thinking more about micro NL, and the assertion that standard ABC TAG is the way to go. And here's just something to think about.

You are sitting at your 10 NL table. And in a shocking move, the greatest No Limit player in the world sits down. This guy knows everything their is to possibly know about NL poker, and he's looking to play the best that he possibly can at this table. (which is basically the best possible way to play).

Do you think he plays ABC Tag? Do you think the guy who knows everything there is, and how to play as profitably as possible against any opposition is going to choose a style that basically anyone who's read a beginner's poker book is familiar with?

I would wager the answer is no. Why? Because the perfect game would push all the edges to the limit, and ABC Tag is basically being content with the easy obvious edges that are handed to you on a platter. And ignores the less obvious edges you are given, and doesn't even try for edges that you have to create/work for.

And this is what makes me cringe a little whenever I hear the phrase "Grind it out" in regards to a NL game.

If you are "grinding it out" playing ABC Tag at Micro NL, you might as well just quit now. I predict a boring, unfulfiling, and marginally successful poker career at best (mostly depending on how ABC Tag your ABC Tag actually is).

Why say that? Because if you accept that the greatest poker player in the world would bring a lot more than the most rudimentary generic game to the table, then playing ABC Tag is basically accepting that you could be a hell of a lot better but instead of striving to find those extra edges, you'd rather play a style of poker that you have now labeled "Boring" and "Non-optimal".

The moral of this story being that you can kill two birds with one stone. Optimizing your play leads to playing more hands and playing them in a more exciting manner, and is more profitable. More money...more fun.

And whatever you do, don't settle for the game you have. If the best players in the world are constantly adding and subtracting things from their game, I think its safe to say us small time no limit players probably could do with a little change in our own.


Even playing winning LAG is boring (unless it is SH at a loose table)...As for how would Phil Ivey play micro limit the answer is it depends:biggrin: ...but here is how I played it, I saw alot of flops, I took shots at every orphen pot. I didnt mind getting caught bluffing, and even showed a bluff or two (somthing I am normally against). I played my big hands straight forward/strong, and always went AI with the nuts at the river, also I went AI preflop with AA, KK everytme. Also I called small bets at the river with busted draws so the few players that were paying attention wouldnt try to bluff me also for info..I didnt value bet, and I pushed my big draws hard....Oh, and it was boring, but winning poker is boring...

acehole_76 Oct 31, 2006 9:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by theonlythree (Post 362573)
But I've made $400 doing that since March. You can play TAG in micro limits and win, as long as you're patient. People pay off hands all the time.

And if we're talking about micro-limit stud, anything BUT TAG is a losing strategy. Every single hand goes to showdown.


He said NL I sure you could lossen up in NL stud, do they have this?

Notjitsu Oct 31, 2006 9:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by theonlythree (Post 362573)
But I've made $400 doing that since March. You can play TAG in micro limits and win, as long as you're patient. People pay off hands all the time.

And if we're talking about micro-limit stud, anything BUT TAG is a losing strategy. Every single hand goes to showdown.

1) You can win playing tag. You can win a lot more playing better.

2) If every single hand goes to showdown, more hands can be played profitably. Thats a reality for all games of poker. Its a big one too.

theonlythree Oct 31, 2006 9:30pm

Well I don't know what the hell I am doing then.. Maybe I should quit.

Boomer2k6 Oct 31, 2006 9:41pm

I'd suggest submitting a few sessions to Notjitsu to have a look at

See this thread

He can help along and help a worthy cause while doing it.

And don't even THINK about quitting. You've got a great base to build on, remember 96% of players who play online lose. Nice to be different.

theonlythree Oct 31, 2006 9:43pm

Eeeeggghghgh, I'm just frustrated because his advice is always so vague and ambiguous to me. Plus I'm down 4 buy-ins since yesterday because I can't beat a fucking calling station to save my life.

Edit - I'm talking about stud. Hold 'em is where I tilt off, then win back money to break even.


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