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-   -   Betting a flopped straight??? (http://www.pokertips.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68479)

lucyf Apr 20, 2009 3:19pm

Betting a flopped straight???
 
I had a great hand, lost it, and wanted to get comments on my analysis and play. Game: casino; $1-$2 no-limit hold'em; nine players. Big blind: loose, aggressive player with small stack ($33); player C: recent sitdown with stack about $270; me in cutoff with large stack (about $600) and about to leave table with winnings.
I am dealt Ks-9s ("s" for spades) and decide to limp in behind five other limpers. The small blind folded. The pot was $12. The flop is dealt: Qs-Jd-10s. I am looking at a made straight to the king, with a flush draw (including a straight flush draw with the Js) and the nut high straigt draw with any A. I think I have the best hand and have 12 outs to improve. I believed that anyone holding an AK had me beat on the flop, but would not have a flush draw in that case. An Ax-s would give someone the nut flush draw. A set would give someone the chance to get a boat or quads. All in all, since only one hand (AK) would have me beat on the flop, I thought the odds were largely in my favor at that point.
The Big Blind bet $15 and said "I've only got another $18" seeming to indicate a desire to get someone to put him all in?? Player C did just that: saw the $15 and raised $18 for $33 to go. (the other limpers fold.) I thought the pot is $78 (I assumed the BB would call for his last $18 ) and that my call would make the pot $111. I decided that the chances of player C having an AK were small and that, if he were trying to scare me out of the pot with a semi-bluff, he would have bet more than he did. Since I didn't want to give him another card too cheaply, I thought a bet near to pot size would stop him from drawing out on me by driving down his pot odds. So I raised $100. Now he had to bet $ 100 to win the pot of $211. The BB called (so he's all in) and then player C reraised my raise by going all in for his last $237 (calling my $100 raise and re-raising another $137). At this point, I concluded he had AK and was ahead of me. With 12 outs to improve, I figured I had about a 45% chance of improving and now the pot was offering me about $415 for a last bet of $137 or about 3 to 1 odds, with no more betting possible. In short, I was pot committed. Player C did have AK and I did not improve on the turn or river and I went home $270 poorer, which was a big hand in a $1-$2 game. So I am wondering whether my play was sensible or the bet I made on the flop was foolish, since, in retrospect, it seems that player C was hoping to get all in and I never saw that coming. Any comments or analyis would be appreciated. LucyF.

Loder89 Apr 20, 2009 3:24pm

You got coolered. I don't like Preflop but you should get it in on that Flop 100% of the time and feel extremly good about it.

WaxHaX0rS Apr 20, 2009 4:41pm

You're 39% vs the worst possible hand (AK).... get it in.

Gus Apr 20, 2009 5:50pm

First, the goal when you post a hand is not to write the longest post possible.
this was way too long to read when all you needed to say was:

Hi, I flopped the second nut str8 with a redraw and I lost. It sucked. :mad:

No need to explain your hand strenght and stuff, we can all read a board here

Also, you give tons and tons of somewhat useless info, but you dont even mention what position player C is, which is crucial info ( while not changing our actions anywhere in the hand obviously) if hes UTG, perhaps he has AK trying to limp reraise, but if hes the 3rd limper, dont even think about AK ever there.

Now theres absolutely nothing else to add to this. Ill just chip in some random advices that seem to be pertinent.

When you flop this kind of hand also known as super-monsters, you need a very different thought process than the one you had. You need to be able to evaluate the relative strenght of your hand; obviously, sometimes a str8 is monster, sometimes its a bluff catcher like 67 on a 898910.
You obviously flopped the nuts there and you wouldnt even need the redraw to consider it the nuts.

*Like in this particular example, youre saying you have 12 outs to improve. Its not exactly true in term of relative strenght/hand that will pay off the most. An ace is the pure action killer, thats not improvement... You cant lose now sure, but you wont get paid off which is a lot worse than fearing an extremely rare AK. The flush is kinda bad for you too since every noobs in live games are insta thinking omg omg theres a flush possible!
And not very important but there a somewhat higher chance that you will get the Ace high flush in your face if the 3rd spade comes than AK, with PF action.

So basically that redraw is nice to have of course, but only to make it possible for you to slow down the action a bit aka trapping and for the once in this century when the guy will have AK

When you flopped the nuts and arent even scared about getting outdrawn, youre not betting to protect your hand, youre not thinking, oh but he could have quads when you have 44 on 422 flop, or AK in a limped pot... youre thinking ship all the money to big daddy and are now thinking about how to receive that shipment

You need to bet that flop because if nobody hit that flop, the turn will very rarely bring you action you wouldnt get on the flop, but can a lot more likely bring an action killer like an A/9/spade... and you want to play a big pot obviously so you need to bet. Youre not betting there to protect against an improbable A high FD.
Try to maximize... you want hands like Kx and bottom 2 pairs to stay in there while charging them for the max.

What Im trying to say is stop playing the game in constant fear of losing. Your post just reeks of fear imo... Thats bad.
The point is not to never put your money in bad, its to maximize your profits. That means sometimes ( most of the time) getting all in without the nuts.

Gus Apr 20, 2009 5:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loder89 (Post 787474)
I don't like Preflop


How is this not the most standard limp ever in most 1-2 live games ?

WaxHaX0rS Apr 20, 2009 6:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus (Post 787529)
First, the goal when you post a hand is not to write the longest post possible.
this was way too long to read when all you needed to say was:

Hi, I flopped the second nut str8 with a redraw and I lost. It sucked. :mad:

No need to explain your hand strenght and stuff, we can all read a board here

Also, you give tons and tons of somewhat useless info, but you dont even mention what position player C is, which is crucial info ( while not changing our actions anywhere in the hand obviously) if hes UTG, perhaps he has AK trying to limp reraise, but if hes the 3rd limper, dont even think about AK ever there.

Now theres absolutely nothing else to add to this. Ill just chip in some random advices that seem to be pertinent.

When you flop this kind of hand also known as super-monsters, you need a very different thought process than the one you had. You need to be able to evaluate the relative strenght of your hand; obviously, sometimes a str8 is monster, sometimes its a bluff catcher like 67 on a 898910.
You obviously flopped the nuts there and you wouldnt even need the redraw to consider it the nuts.

So when you flopped the nuts and arent even scared about getting outdrawn, youre not betting to protect your hand, youre not thinking, oh but he could have quads when you have 44 on 422 flop, or AK in a limped pot... youre thinking ship all the money to big daddy and are now thinking about how to receive that shipment

You need to bet that flop because if nobody hit that flop, the turn will very rarely bring you action you wouldnt get on the flop, but can a lot more likely bring an action killer like an A/9/spade... and you want to play a big pot obviously so you need to bet. Youre not betting there to protect against an improbable A high FD.
Try to maximize... you want hands like Kx and bottom 2 pairs to stay in there while charging them for the max.

What Im trying to say is stop playing the game in constant fear of losing. Your post just reeks of fear imo... Thats bad.
The point is not to never put your money in bad, its to maximize your profits. That means sometimes ( most of the time) getting all in without the nuts.

:shock: fantastic

DoubleU Apr 20, 2009 6:18pm

POTY imo.

Loder89 Apr 20, 2009 7:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus (Post 787532)
How is this not the most standard limp ever in most 1-2 live games ?

Well I guess you are right ;)

SwoopAE Apr 20, 2009 8:16pm

What Gus said. I couldn't have said it better myself.

SwoopAE Jan 05, 2011 8:38pm

Someone ban the spambot please

Or make me a mod and i'll do it


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