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-   -   Omaha bust thread (http://www.pokertips.org/forums/showthread.php?t=86770)

GoldfishUltraDeluxe Dec 23, 2012 11:39pm

Omaha bust thread
 
Difference between Omaha and Hold'em is that in Hold'em it is possible to win a a hand when you're all-in against a big stack. In Omaha, that is rarely possible.


Did I do anything wrong here?


PokerStars Hand #91220180350: Tournament #658002127, $2.00+$0.20 USD Mixed PLH/PLO (Omaha Pot Limit) - Level VIII (60/120) - 2012/12/23 19:30:12 ET
Table '658002127 3' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: bluesman1959 (1990 in chips)
Seat 2: B1G F1SH (28277 in chips)
Seat 3: Himbourg (2536 in chips)
Seat 5: gavrina7 (6437 in chips)
Seat 6: utgVrtz (5279 in chips)
Himbourg: posts small blind 60
gavrina7: posts big blind 120
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to utgVrtz [Jc 5d 9d Tc]
utgVrtz: calls 120
bluesman1959: folds
B1G F1SH: calls 120
Himbourg: calls 60
gavrina7: checks
*** FLOP *** [5s Jd 8h]
Himbourg: bets 360
gavrina7: folds
utgVrtz: raises 390 to 750
B1G F1SH: raises 2340 to 3090
Himbourg: calls 2056 and is all-in
utgVrtz: raises 2069 to 5159 and is all-in
B1G F1SH: calls 2069
*** TURN *** [5s Jd 8h] [8s]
*** RIVER *** [5s Jd 8h 8s] [As]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
utgVrtz: shows [Jc 5d 9d Tc] (two pair, Jacks and Eights)
B1G F1SH: shows [9s 7s Ts 3s] (a flush, Ace high)
B1G F1SH collected 5486 from side pot
Himbourg: shows [2s 5h Jh 3d] (two pair, Jacks and Eights)
B1G F1SH collected 7728 from main pot
utgVrtz finished the tournament in 11th place
Himbourg finished the tournament in 12th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 13214 Main pot 7728. Side pot 5486. | Rake 0
Board [5s Jd 8h 8s As]
Seat 1: bluesman1959 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: B1G F1SH (button) showed [9s 7s Ts 3s] and won (13214) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 3: Himbourg (small blind) showed [2s 5h Jh 3d] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Eights
Seat 5: gavrina7 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: utgVrtz showed [Jc 5d 9d Tc] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Eights

GoldfishUltraDeluxe Dec 31, 2012 12:19pm

AAQT < AA72

PokerStars Hand #91591121117: Tournament #664697064, $3.00+$0.30 USD Omaha Pot Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2012/12/31 8:02:58 ET
Table '664697064 8' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: jekalezuster (16755 in chips)
Seat 2: utgVrtz (8024 in chips)
Seat 4: Owl4Ever (2108 in chips)
Seat 5: magozepeda (10244 in chips)
Seat 6: H3P04 (9667 in chips)
utgVrtz: posts small blind 125
Owl4Ever: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to utgVrtz [Td Ah Qs Ac]
magozepeda: folds
H3P04: raises 625 to 875
jekalezuster: folds
utgVrtz: raises 825 to 1700
Owl4Ever: folds
H3P04: raises 3650 to 5350
utgVrtz: raises 2674 to 8024 and is all-in
H3P04: calls 2674
*** FLOP *** [8s 3s Jc]
*** TURN *** [8s 3s Jc] [4d]
*** RIVER *** [8s 3s Jc 4d] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
utgVrtz: shows [Td Ah Qs Ac] (a pair of Aces)
H3P04: shows [As Ad 7s 2d] (a straight, Ace to Five)
H3P04 collected 16298 from pot
utgVrtz finished the tournament in 60th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 16298 | Rake 0
Board [8s 3s Jc 4d 5c]
Seat 1: jekalezuster (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: utgVrtz (small blind) showed [Td Ah Qs Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: Owl4Ever (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: magozepeda folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: H3P04 showed [As Ad 7s 2d] and won (16298) with a straight, Ace to Five

BeluA Dec 31, 2012 9:05pm

#1 hand:

Pot Limit Omaha Tournament
PokerStars
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
$2.00+$0.20

Stacks:
Hero (UTG) (5,279) 44bb
CO (1,990) 17bb
BTN (28,277) 236bb
SB (2,536) 21bb
BB (6,437) 54bb

Blinds: 60/120

Pre-Flop: (180, 5 players) Hero is UTG :Jc :5d :9d :Tc
Hero calls 120, 1 fold, BTN calls 120, SB calls 60, BB checks

Flop: :5s :Jd :8h (480, 4 players)
SB bets 360, 1 fold, Hero raises to 750, BTN raises to 3,090, SB goes all-in 2,056, Hero goes all-in 5,159, BTN calls 2,069

Turn: :8s (13,214, 3 players, 2 all-in)

River: :As (13,214, 3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: 13,214
BTN shows a flush, Ace high
:9s :7s :Ts :3s
SB shows two pair, Jacks and Eights
:2s :5h :Jh :3d
Hero shows two pair, Jacks and Eights
:Jc :5d :9d :Tc

BTN wins 13,214 (net +7,935)

SB lost 2,536
BB lost 120
Hero lost 5,279



#2 hand:

Pot Limit Omaha Tournament
PokerStars
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
$3.00+$0.30

Stacks:
UTG (10,244) 41bb
CO (9,667) 39bb
BTN (16,755) 67bb
Hero (SB) (8,024) 32bb
BB (2,108) 8bb

Blinds: 125/250

Pre-Flop: (375, 5 players) Hero is SB :Td :Ah :Qs :Ac
1 fold, CO raises to 875, 1 fold, Hero raises to 1,700, 1 fold, CO raises to 5,350, Hero goes all-in 8,024, CO calls 2,674

Flop: :8s :3s :Jc (16,298, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: :4d (16,298, 2 players, 1 all-in)

River: :5c (16,298, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: 16,298
Hero shows a pair of Aces
:Td :Ah :Qs :Ac
CO shows a straight, Ace to Five
:As :Ad :7s :2d

CO wins 16,298 (net +8,274)

Hero lost 8,024

BeluA Dec 31, 2012 9:06pm

why would you raise the flop in hand 1? its a bluff.. and once someone behind you jams its a pretty easy fold

GoldfishUltraDeluxe Jan 02, 2013 9:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeluA (Post 1017034)
why would you raise the flop in hand 1? its a bluff.. and once someone behind you jams its a pretty easy fold



Reads and odds. (IMHO, the shortstack didn't jam, he just overcalled, giving me better odds.) I know that the shortstack is a fish who is willing to gamble and I think the other player knew the same thing so he wanted to isolate the fish with his raise.


As I have the nut straight draw on a rainbow flop and J5 two-paired I only fear J8 and 88 on the flop (I block fives so 55 is very unlikely) and I block the jacks, making potential bonus draws for higher jack-based two-pairs (turned/rivered JK/JA) less likely.

On the other hand, maybe the other players thought I was a fish so they were happy to put their chips in once they saw I raised the flop :)

killcrazy Jan 02, 2013 10:08pm

well, what exactly did you put your opponents on?

this is one of those odd spots where you have two ways to win and they both suck. you only have an 8 out straight draw, and you're going to chop when that draw lands a significant percentage of the time. you have two pair but they're extremely vulnerable. JXXX likely has at least 2 and often 3 overs.

your raise is a bit meh, but when your man cold 3bets over the top of you at least half your hand is busted. he either has a set or a better draw 100% of the time. SB is not airballing here, he bet 3/4 pot and was happy to play against a raiser and a reraiser. there isn't really room for him to be being a fish here, he either has draws, or he has >AJ.

you were in about as good a shape as you could possibly hope to be when the cards got turned over. you caught them both at the bottom of their range and you still only had what, 40% equity?

Kc

GoldfishUltraDeluxe Jan 04, 2013 4:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by killcrazy (Post 1017054)
well, what exactly did you put your opponents on?

this is one of those odd spots where you have two ways to win and they both suck. you only have an 8 out straight draw, and you're going to chop when that draw lands a significant percentage of the time. you have two pair but they're extremely vulnerable. JXXX likely has at least 2 and often 3 overs.

your raise is a bit meh, but when your man cold 3bets over the top of you at least half your hand is busted. he either has a set or a better draw 100% of the time. SB is not airballing here, he bet 3/4 pot and was happy to play against a raiser and a reraiser. there isn't really room for him to be being a fish here, he either has draws, or he has >AJ.

you were in about as good a shape as you could possibly hope to be when the cards got turned over. you caught them both at the bottom of their range and you still only had what, 40% equity?

Kc

JXXX overs only include two reasonable overs (A&K) right? I admit that I don't take sixes into account and I don't consider runner-runner full houses.

I try to make a pokerstove estimate by isolating the features of the holdings into fewer categories:

9,118,859 games 12.661 secs 720,232 games/sec

Board: 5s Jd 8h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.897% 02.11% 14.79% 191988 1348785.50 { Ts9s }
Hand 1: 03.829% 03.75% 00.08% 342322 6866.00 { 7s3s }
Hand 2: 27.548% 00.00% 27.55% 0 2512061.50 { Jc5d }
Hand 3: 14.791% 00.00% 14.79% 0 1348785.50 { Tc9d }
Hand 4: 34.315% 06.77% 27.55% 617104 2512061.50 { Jh5h }
Hand 5: 02.620% 02.54% 00.08% 232019 6866.00 { 3d2s }


Hence, I had approximately 27+15 = 42% equity, so the "Blah blah blah KC is right" signature makes sense.

EDIT: I see the power of backdoor flush draws in Omaha. Lesson learnt.

killcrazy Jan 04, 2013 6:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldfishUltraDeluxe (Post 1017072)
JXXX overs only include two reasonable overs (A&K) right?

all overs are reasonable in omaha. even a 6 can break you, and an 8 is pretty close to the eschaton. consider also a hand like AKJT. so, yeah, a ten is a chop, but it's an ugly chop. he's drawing to AKQ, you're drawing to a 7.

we don't have to improve our opponents hands by much to make this an ugly spot. just give J532 the queen of diamonds rather than the deuce of spastics and you scoop less than 1% of the time, chopping about 50% for equity of 26%

even if you do have an edge here, which you might if they're bad enough, it's too small an edge to be throwing your entire stack behind, especially when there's a reasonable chance someone is going to bust.

Quote:

I try to make a pokerstove estimate by isolating the features of the holdings into fewer categories:
google for omaha equity calculator. you scoop 15.17% and chop 50.30%. you could refine this to take sidepots into account but who has time for this kind of nonsense.

Kc

GoldfishUltraDeluxe Jan 04, 2013 9:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by killcrazy (Post 1017074)
who has time for this kind of nonsense.

Kc

We have now wasted enough time due to a runner-runner flush.
Next time I make a bad play I know I shouldn't post it :biggrin:

killcrazy Jan 04, 2013 11:15pm

well, if you know it's a bad play then you would probably prefer to keep it quiet.

it's surprising how many "bad beats" are really just bad play though.

Kc


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