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Old May 09, 2012, 2:13am   #1
slappyhooper
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Default Floor Ruling?

I was playing in Helsinki, Finland at the Grand Casino 1/2 Euro NLHE.

I was in seat 7 and the villian in Seat 5 bet xx preflop. I call along with 2 other players. I'm holding a weak suited ace.
flop comes A 8 5 I have top pair with a crappy kicker and no possibility of a flush. The villian is in almost every hand and almost always C bets the flop. I'm pretty sure I'm good right now but I'm along for the ride. He bets and it's folded around to me. I call by tossing in my chips in and wait for the turn.
I'm not very vocal because although most Finns speak english, they still play poker in mostly Finnish. I don't speak Finnish.

Villian glances over at me, and tosses his hand into the muck. The dealer is dealing the Turn at this point. it's another 8.

At this point the villian expresses his suprise that I'm still in the hand and reaches for his discards, both of which are mucked, but barely touching the muck pile. Point is it seems the villian had a brain fart and mucked thinking I folded.
His cards hit the outter edge of the muck pile. There was no doubt they were his cards, but they were touching the muck.

Villian retrieves his mucked cards. I call foul and ask ask for the floor boss.

Villian is insisting he didn't mean to fold....I'm insisting that it doesn't matter he folded when his hand hit the muck pile...Floor boss is trying to keep our raised voices down.

In the end, the floor boss "resurrects" the hand that was mucked. I am NOT happy at all and I am vocal about it. Call me a bitch, but there's posted rules that were just violated by the f'n floor boss. I don't even care about the money anymore, I'm more concerned with winning the argument.

Villian looks at me, looks at the 8 that came on the turn. Looks back at me, smiles and goes all in and he's got me covered.

I'm steaming and fold.

Anyway. I go to discuss things with the floor boss, he explains that they get new players all the time in who make mistakes and they tend to be relaxed with the rules that are posted if it wasn't intentional. I gather my things and leave because I was so steaming and no matter how right I think I was, they just didn't see things my way.

I'm still convinced that I'm right. At the least, when they resurrected the villians hand they should run out the hand with no betting. What's your take on this?

What's your experience with this type of thing?
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Old May 09, 2012, 9:30am   #2
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you're right unless you were angleshooting and hiding your cards from villain or whatever then you should get the ruling, otherwise villain would
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Old May 09, 2012, 1:45pm   #3
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Yea that was a pretty generous floor ruling for the villain. It's unfortunate that this cardroom takes a relaxed stance on the rules for new players. Rules are rules and they should be enforced evenly and consistently. Usually when a hand touches the muck it's considered dead. I don't blame you for being mad.
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Old May 09, 2012, 3:55pm   #4
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A mucked hand is dead.

But I think there may be more going on here than we have been told. Perhaps a dispute over whether the cards actually touched the muck or some such? I mean, why is the dealer printing the turn? They apparently don't think the hand is dead...

More broadly, I am of the belief that the game should be decided by play wherever possible. A genuine mistake in mechanics or etiquette should be treated as such. The second time he does it, the floor will be much less forgiving.

Apart from anything else, it's better for the game to be tolerant and forgiving of such errors. If you aggressively enforce string bets, forward motion, etc, you're going to chase a bunch of those fish who don't know better and want to gamble away to the blackjack tables.

So my advice to OP is this. Firstly, never under any circumstances raise your voice to a casino employee regardless of how badly they are fucking things up. Apart from the fact that throwing a tantrum makes you look like a twat, having the dealers and floor on your side is +EV. When they do help you out with a ruling, remember to take care of them. If a ruling goes against you, you have made your case and had it rejected, accept the ruling and get on with the game. With a little verbal finesse and a respectful attitude to the floor you probably could have got more from this than you did. Maybe he would agree to run the rest of the hand out without action, or kill the 8 and deal a new turn, or just chop the pot up between the two of you. Or you could shout at him and make him totally disinterested in helping you.

Secondly, assuming you are a winning player who is making money in that game, recognise that the money you win isn't just coming out of a magic hole in the ceiling. It's coming from other players, and you have a part to play in making everybody at the table want to be there. Nobody wants to play with an officious, antagonistic kid.

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Old May 09, 2012, 8:45pm   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
When they do help you out with a ruling, remember to take care of them.
I disagree with the suggestion to tip a floorman if their ruling is suitable to your wishes. Can they even accept tips? Seems like a slippery slope towards compromised rulings.

I also think you're being a little hard on the OP. It sounds like he raised his voice when getting into a back and forth with the other player regarding whether the hand was dead, not with the floor. He then went to "discuss" things with the floor and left afterwards because he was upset. Calling him officious and antagonistic seems like a major overreaction based on his behavior that he described in the OP. He has every right to be upset as evidenced by what you said in your opening paragraph.
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Old May 10, 2012, 12:21am   #6
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I would have called the push to either make me feel better or throw me over the edge. OK maybe not, but it would have been a better story.
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Old May 10, 2012, 1:53am   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozone View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
When they do help you out with a ruling, remember to take care of them.
I disagree with the suggestion to tip a floorman if their ruling is suitable to your wishes. Can they even accept tips? Seems like a slippery slope towards compromised rulings.
We can tip dealers, and a compromised dealer is infinitely more effective/dangerous than a compromised floor manager. A culture where nobody tips for anything is obviously preferable.

One might suggest that one is obliged to play the hand one is dealt, and a floor man who likes you can be very helpful without compromising the integrity of himself or his game.

So if he's had to make a tough ruling, or indeed has been helpful to you beyond what would simply be required of him; tip him, and do so discreetly.

Quote:
I also think you're being a little hard on the OP. It sounds like he raised his voice when getting into a back and forth with the other player regarding whether the hand was dead, not with the floor.
Same applies. Unless you're being raped, playing Rechts Megafon for Bayern Schreien Feen or urgently required to alert your friend to a robot uprising while he's operating a pneumatic drill, the probability of a favourable outcome tends to decrease with increasing volume.

Quote:
He then went to "discuss" things with the floor and left afterwards because he was upset. Calling him officious and antagonistic seems like a major overreaction based on his behavior that he described in the OP.
I did not actually describe him as such, so much as counsel against behaviour that could be so interpreted.

Quote:
He has every right to be upset as evidenced by what you said in your opening paragraph.
What I said in my opening paragraph was that there may be more going on here than we have been told?

Having the right to be upset is irrelevant. I have a right to be upset about a great many things. What will that achieve?

Well it will make me feel worse. Probably I will be a cunt to some other people because of it so they will be less well disposed towards me in future. Perhaps I will go all in and smash up a police car. Getting upset is -EV and anyone who would defend it as a viable course of action should probably avail themselves of the opportunity to re-evaluate. Selah.

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Old May 10, 2012, 5:35am   #8
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Default Anyway...

To clarify a bit. I never raised my voice at the dealer. I did raise my voice at the other player when he tried to resume play as if nothing had happened.

I didn't hide my cards, the chips from my call were very clearly across the betting line, and the dealer saw it and began dealing the turn.

The player who mucked did not look at the turn being dealt, he mucked, then noticed he had a caller.

When I lost the ruling, and went to discuss things with the floor boss, I was animated but not yelling. I was upset about the ruling though. The floor boss explained they're trying not to chase away new players who make mistakes.
I left because I made the point to him that unless they fairly enforce the posted rules, they'll lose other players as a result.
(Although I doubt they will, they have a state-run monopoly on all casinos in Finland)
Point is, I wanted to make a point that they were losing my business that day by not enforcing their own rules.


Anyway, I tip dealers. Once at a cardroom in southern cali, I jokingly told the dealer if he dealt me a bad beat jackpot, I'd give him 10% off the top.

Three hands later he dealt me KK and the final board was AA23A against the quads so I felt obligated to give him 10% of my take. (about 1500 bucks).
Dealers loved me after that....
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Old May 10, 2012, 1:36pm   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slappyhooper View Post
To clarify a bit. I never raised my voice at the dealer. I did raise my voice at the other player when he tried to resume play as if nothing had happened.

I didn't hide my cards, the chips from my call were very clearly across the betting line, and the dealer saw it and began dealing the turn.

The player who mucked did not look at the turn being dealt, he mucked, then noticed he had a caller.
Which is too bizarre to have been everything that happened. I suspect something like, the dealer has said "okay all done" (in Finnish) which vil has interpreted as meaning the hand is done rather than the action is complete.

Quote:
When I lost the ruling, and went to discuss things with the floor boss, I was animated but not yelling. I was upset about the ruling though. The floor boss explained they're trying not to chase away new players who make mistakes.
I left because I made the point to him that unless they fairly enforce the posted rules, they'll lose other players as a result.
(Although I doubt they will, they have a state-run monopoly on all casinos in Finland)

Point is, I wanted to make a point that they were losing my business that day by not enforcing their own rules.
well, are they?

with their state run monopoly, where else are you going to play?

did you actually use the words "I appreciate your position and that you're trying to encourage people to play in your casino, but because of that I lost (euros) that by your rules published in your cardroom I should have won" and what was his response?

after this you ask if he understands why you are frustrated with the outcome, and gently encourage him to find a way to make it right. this kind of negotiation should be pretty simple for a poker player.

incidentally, if you had the nuts here, would you still be demanding the dude's hand got killed?

coming back to what i said before. if i was in your spot, i would be okay with him getting his cards back regardless of where i am in the hand (and i have done this dozens of times). he's obviously not shooting an angle, he's made a genuine mistake. that means he's a donkey. a donkey sitting two seats to my right. he is an asset. how much have i put in this pot? 30 or 40 euros? how much does he have in front of him? how much does he have in his pocket?

yeah?

Quote:
Anyway, I tip dealers. Once at a cardroom in southern cali, I jokingly told the dealer if he dealt me a bad beat jackpot, I'd give him 10% off the top.
that's actually pretty standard, but good for you for not being a cheapskate.

Kc
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