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Old Mar 17, 2004, 7:42am   #1
sffan72
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Default How badly did I play this?

The hits from Stars keep on coming... from a 2-table SNG tonight:

PokerStars Game #339356067: Tournament #1212181, Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2004/03/17 - 02:55:55 (ET)
Table '1212181 2' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: thomase12 (1055 in chips)
Seat 4: Illuminati2 (6685 in chips)
Seat 5: daywalkerr (4675 in chips)
Seat 6: sffan72 (2485 in chips)
Seat 7: UFOLDEM (5270 in chips)
Seat 8: johnrose (4500 in chips)
Seat 9: FeverToTell (2330 in chips)
daywalkerr: posts small blind 100
sffan72: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sffan72 [Kh 6h]
UFOLDEM: folds
johnrose: calls 200
FeverToTell: calls 200
thomase12: folds
Illuminati2: folds
daywalkerr: calls 100
sffan72: checks
*** FLOP *** [Kc Ah Kd]
Illuminati2 said, "sry"
daywalkerr: checks
sffan72: checks
johnrose: checks
FeverToTell: bets 600
daywalkerr: folds
sffan72: calls 600
johnrose: folds
*** TURN *** [Kc Ah Kd] [3c]
sffan72: checks
FeverToTell: bets 600
sffan72: calls 600
*** RIVER *** [Kc Ah Kd 3c] [Ad]
sffan72: checks
FeverToTell: bets 930 and is all-in
sffan72: calls 930
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FeverToTell: shows [Ac Qh] (a full house, Aces full of Kings)
sffan72: shows [Kh 6h] (a full house, Kings full of Aces)
FeverToTell collected 5060 from pot
sffan72 said, "damn"

This left me with 155 in chips. I managed to work that back up to 1500 or so over the next 25 hands (starting with the next hand where I doubled up in the SB... with 3-7 offsuit), but I still wound up finishing 6th.

Questions:
1) Do I bet out on the flop? I know I'd get action from anyone with an ace. I checked and was bet into. Should I have raised/pushed all-in? I didn't because of a weak kicker with the 6...

2) Is there any scenario you can envision where you don't call the river?

Like the title says, how badly did I play this?
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Old Mar 17, 2004, 10:14am   #2
BadBeatBasti
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I think you need to play more aggressive. You played passive and didn't have a chance to find out what he got.
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Old Mar 17, 2004, 11:28am   #3
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Default Re: How badly did I play this?

Quote:
*** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to sffan72 [Kh 6h]
This is the way I would have played those cards.

Quote:
*** FLOP *** [Kc Ah Kd]
I would have bet about 200 or 300 to see if anybody got an Ace, King or Pair! If somebody calls, it's okay and if somebody raises me I would have called.

Quote:
*** TURN *** [Kc Ah Kd] [3c]
I would have bet now more then last time. Maybe 400 to get rid of river chasers and to see if they players who are still in really got something or not. If they call or raise you need to be careful.

Quote:
*** RIVER *** [Kc Ah Kd 3c] [Ad]
Let's say the he just called after the Turn. Now you are really in trouble because you "only" got a King. The best thing that could happen to you is that he has a King too and would have to split the pot. If he has an Ace the pot is gone. I think I would have checked and let him act now. I think this would have been the right time to play passive. Because if he has a king, I think he would check too. Why? Because he is probably scared that you got the Ace and that you are trying to lure him into a trap. But if he has an Ace then he won't have to worry and can bet as much as he wants. So he won't check if he got an Ace. So if he bets then it depends on how much he bets. If it is not more than 50, then I would call. Otherwise I would fold.

That's what I would have done (maybe)
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Old Mar 17, 2004, 2:36pm   #4
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I woulda made my move on the turn being out of position, and put him all-in there. It would be tough for him to lay down aq with all the money in the pot.

As for the river. You have to lay that down. You know he caught a lucky card, and has you beat...might as well accept it, and try to salvage.
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Old Mar 17, 2004, 2:48pm   #5
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Since you called the flop and he bet the same amount on the turn, didn't increase the bet with the size of the pot, that usually means to me that the person betting isn't completely confident in their hand. If he had a King, he probably would have pushed you harder, I think. Because of that, I think I would have raised him on the turn, probably all-in since the pot was pretty big at that point. That would mean no decision on the river if he called, but hopefully he would have folded when you raised on the turn.

The way you played it though, just calling, the river's tough. Since the turn looked like an Ace to me, I might have laid it down. It's a tough one to fold, especially with so much in the pot, but if you're almost certain you're beat, you don't want to be knocked out of the tournament or crippled paying off a hand you know you've lost, in my opinion. Considering the comeback you made from 155, if you'd had 1085 left after folding on the river instead, you would have had a much better chance of finishing well.

So basically, if you were going to call anyway if the worst card that could come up did come up, I think an all-in raise on the turn was the best way to go.
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Old Mar 18, 2004, 3:39am   #6
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I must admit I figured him for a K, not an ace.

I also had had success earlier in the tourney by slowplaying a hand, when in one hand I flopped the nut flush and didn't push until the river (and got paid off by the guy holding the K)... so I was probably thinking along those lines.

I see the logic in the suggested turn raise. Maybe even check-raising the flop. ANY raise, somewhere before the river. If I push him in on the turn, though, I'm really feeling sick when the river hits.

End result: too passive for that stage of the tournament + having to rely on luck to rebuild chip stack = disaster.

Thanks to everyone for their observations and opinions, they were helpful.
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Old Mar 18, 2004, 8:10pm   #7
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Tough but very interesting hand. One thing I think you should have considered on your slowplay is what he thinks YOU had when betting. I think somewhere in the strategy section it says that you need to consider not only what you think he has, but also what he thinks you have (confusing sentence, I know).

1) There were no pre-flop raises, so if I were him I wouldn't put you on AA, AK, or KK from the big blind with a semi-short stack and that many limpers. Why let that many people limp when you could increase your stack without seeing a flop, right?

2) You check the flop but call a decent bet. He probably puts you on A-rag (which he has dominated), a K (which scares him to death), or a draw (say Q-J or a small pair).

3) With the blank coming, you check. He's a little scared you have a K or maybe you made a boat with a pair of threes in the hole, so he just bets the same as he did on the flop. If you were going to make a play at this pot, you probably should have done it here. If you check-raise, he may dump his hand. If he calls your check-raise, you may be able to get away with checking the river and having him check as well in fear of a another check-raise. If he reraises, you can dump your hand if you put him on a K with a better kicker. I'm no expert, but at this point you have little information to go on about what he has since you just call. I know that experts say you should be able to put a person on a hand without having to bet, but let's face it, we're not all experts and in the online world one of the easiest ways to put someone on a hand is to raise them and see how they react.

4) The ace hits the river. He thinks back to 1) and since he hasn't put you on KK he pushes all his money in, hoping that you slowplayed K-rag. I know it's tough to lay down K's over A's, but you definitely should have considered that he may have limped pre-flop with A-off and that based on your actions he knew his A-off was now DEFINITELY getting at least half the pot. Even if he did have a K, you were only MAYBE getting half the pot Aunless you put him on a bluff, which it sounds like you didn't (which was a good call, cause he wasn't). There is a huge difference between DEFINITELY and MAYBE and when you are uncertain what your opponent holds, you don't want to risk your tournament on MAYBE getting half the pot when you could save a significant portion of your stack and wait for a better spot.

The one lesson I'm taking away from this hand is that slowplaying a decent hand with a semi-short stack can get you in trouble. Sometimes you see a monster like trip kings and say to yourself that you need to hit a home-run with it, but sometimes poker isn't all about the home run. Sometimes you need to be happy with hitting doubles by taking pots after the flop or turn and shutting your opponents out of their draws.
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