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Old Dec 05, 2004, 3:38pm   #1
JohnnyD65
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Default 2 Beats so bad they should be illegal

I've had two bad beats in the last few weeks so unbelievable they make you want to believe in the (angry) flop gods. First was a single-table tournament at Party Poker. I usually try to cool my jets the first couple levels because there tends to be so many wild players that either quickly bust (or bust you) out. But I get the dream on the first hand, pocket aces. I shove in about four big blinds and everyone folds except one player who doubles my bet. Cool, I think and double up on him. Then he goes all in! Normally I don't like to do this early in the tourny but what the hey... I go in. He has pocket kings. The flop comes AK4 and I'm counting the chips. The turn comes.... king! The river is no help and I'm out on the first hand with a set of aces.

Second was on a $50 NL ring game also on Party. I get Ac Tc while on the button and put in a modest raise and get about three callers, one in the small blind. Turn comes As Ah Ts! Heaven. Small blind comes out with a minimum bet. Cool, again I think. Everyone folds but yours truly. I call. I'm thinking this guy has a ten and a good kicker or another big pair and is trying to suss out aces. Turn is nothing. Small blind bets minimum again. I call. River is Qs (look back at the flop carefully). Small blind goes all in. My eyes fly open! Maybe he was holding AQ but it seems unlikely given his initial betting. I push the chips in and we show. Small blind is holding Ks Js! Away go my chips.
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Old Dec 05, 2004, 4:46pm   #2
XA_kid
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I would not consider any of those bad beats per say just because in the first place you both played those hands like you should (though one could argue that you made a case for a high pocket pair, it takes a very keen player to fold kings pre-flop).

As for the 2nd hand, you let him draw you out. This is why slow-playing can get you in trouble at NL. When I slow play, I put the heat on at the turn because you get lesser hands to call and force out any draws and/or punish them for drawing. A good example was when I hit a set of sixes, I slow played them to the aggressor, but on the turn I played back and went way over the top. He ended up callling and missing his flush. I punished his aggresiveness and his bad pot odds, but I would have been happy for him to make the good play and fold and just scoop the pot there. I generally don't look to bust a player, just cripple him
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Old Dec 05, 2004, 6:12pm   #3
packattack88
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I agree with XA. Don't slowplay all the way to the river. If you want to on the flop, that's fine, but it's a good idea to build the pot on the turn.
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Old Dec 05, 2004, 9:02pm   #4
vitaltilt
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I'm new here, so please take my post with a grain of salt, but I think the previous two posters (packattack and XA) are right on the money about your 2nd situation. The Poker Strategy section on this site has some great advice for No Limit, attacking is always better than calling because you place the decision into your opponent's hands -- and you can also read hand strength from that decision.

There is another recent topic in this folder where others have mentioned the benefit of re-raising on the turn. Especially here since your opponent bet the minimum -- clear indication he was on a draw and wanted to see the river for cheap. Also, and this is a big if, if your opponent did call a pot sized re-raise, maybe the suited Q would have tipped off the possibility of a str8 flush. Though, I am a sucker to the str8 flush everytime, I never think they hit.

Though the one good thing out of a bad beat like your 2nd situation is that you will not make the same play again. Speaking of which, I am curious to know how much others would have re-raised on the turn. I would have re-raised a pot-sized bet. Is that optimal? Should it be higher, lower? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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Old Dec 06, 2004, 1:29am   #5
XA_kid
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I don't play NL ring games that much (still working on that game), but if this was a tourney, then I would have bet a little bit more than the pot. If the guy calls, he is probably really stupid to chase that draw and will lose money in the long run. If there is re-raise (which means A and probably a high kicker), you have to go all in, put the other guy to the test. It is better to win a small pot than to lose a big one (I know, an oft-repeated poker maxim, but I believe in it).
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Old Dec 06, 2004, 7:12pm   #6
zemidjan_99
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Default I had...

almost the same thing happen to me with the same hand. Flopped a1010 with a10 in the pocket. guy made his flush on the turn and bet into me. I decided to wait to the river and kc completes his royal. I called his 2x pot bet to see it though.

I think slow playing actually saved my stack. I could have taken the pot down on the flop, but wasn't scared of the flush draw b/c everyone limped, so I wanted to let the drawers make a hand. But if I push after the the turn I think he calls.
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