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Old Jan 12, 2005, 12:11am   #21
Fredrik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yads
Quote:
Originally Posted by 92hatchattack
lets say im drawing on a flush.... which means i have 9 outs right??? meaning that i have about a 20% chance of hitting??? correct???

now, if the bet to me is $2, and there is $8 in the pot that will equal $10, and my $2 would be 20% of the pot..... and i should probaly call right????
No this is incorrect. you have 9 outs so the odds of you hitting on the next card are 38:9 or about 4:1 (47 unseen cards 9 of which help you, so 38 cards don't help you) so in the first example the pot is offering you odds of 10:2 (8 in the pot plus an opponents bet) which is 5:1 so the pot is offering you good odds. Why? well 4 times out of 5 you will lose $2 and the other time you will win 10 (when you hit your flush) so 10-4*2=2 so for every 5 times this scenario happens you will win $2.
I think 92 hatchattack got it right and Yads made a mistake.

You agree that the probability is about 20%. (This is equal to 1/5 which is equivalent to 4:1 odds). I agree with this too. But you shouldn't compare the odds with (8+2)/2. You should either compare the probability with (8+2)/2 or the odds with 8/2.

If I'm not expressing myself clearly enough here, I recommend this post and the other one I posted later in the same thread.

Edit: Actually I see now that I misunderstood what 92hatchattack said. I thought there was $8 in the pot after the opponent had bet. This is obviously not what he meant. He meant that there was $10 in the pot after the opponent had bet.

This misunderstanding made me think that Yads had made a mistake that I've seen others make before, but that conclusion was incorrect.
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Old Jan 12, 2005, 6:17pm   #22
Jasmien
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47/9-1 = 4.22-1
or 9/47*100 = 19.14%

8$ (pot) + 2$ (opponents bet) = 10$
$10-$2 (your call) = 5-1

Since your odds are better than the pot, you can call


you lose 2$ 4.22 times and win 10$ 1 time.
(1*10)+(-2*4.22) = $1.56


If the bet to you was $4 (and the pot still 10$):
(1*10)+(-4*4.22) = $-6.88 so you cant call.
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Old Jan 12, 2005, 7:03pm   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasmien
Yeah abduls guide is ok for new players, but if you want to make real money, read books. (Remember that postflop is much more important than preflop play, however you have to understand both of cause)
For limit holdem books are only useful for new players. You want to make real money you need to gain experience. It will teach everything you need to know.
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Old Jan 12, 2005, 7:51pm   #24
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I think Jasmien is smarter than I really want to be. I think I'll drink a bud and fart!
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Exnay on the slow play
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Old Jan 13, 2005, 8:22pm   #25
Reg Dunlop
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If you're looking to get better against your friends then forget the odds and all that for now. But if you want to get better playing against better players in other games pay attention to what people have said about it. For now in the game you play you want to see as many cheap flops as possible. I'd almost call with anything if I think there's a chance of picking something up. You already know your biggest problems of continuing to call when you can't win and hanging in too long. Just remember the simple rules for a very weak table.
If you can see the flop cheaply, take a look at it. You're 6,9 might get you a cheap three of a kind or a good straight draw. If you don't have anything get out. Remember only cheap flops though.
Bluffing is a very important skill and its good to develop it but you can't bluff weak players because they'll call. Bluffing a weak player is a bad move because they don't read the situation well enough to understand what you "might" be holding. So forget about that against your buddies.
Whenever you get a nice hand, make the other guys pay more to see the flop. Raise and/or reraise them. This is just the opposite of what I said above. I liked the Abdul list but I would even lower the standards a bit against your friends. By the sounds of it they're not going to re-raise or realize that they should.
Basically I'm saying take a look at your first five cards whenever you can. Only keep going when you have a good chance of making your hand or have it made already.
Someone mentioned "outs" before. Know your outs. You don't have to be a math genius to get a feel on whether you can make the hand or not. I wouldn't slowplay against your friends either for the same reason I wouldn't bluff them. If you get your hand, try to get them out of the pot as fast as possible. Nothing is more frustrating than losing two top pair to a 5,8 offsuit straight on the river.
Don't worry about playing your friends differently. They'll only get better and after a while you'll all have more fun. If you think any of this helped I'd look into limiting your hands that you play next and then work on understanding position better.
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Old Jan 13, 2005, 8:46pm   #26
Jasmien
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sorry but i disagree.

Quote:
If you're looking to get better against your friends then forget the odds and all that for now. But if you want to get better playing against better players in other games pay attention to what people have said about it.
this is wrong. the odds dont change, unimportant who your opponents are. If its +ev its +ev....

Quote:
I'd almost call with anything if I think there's a chance of picking something up.
There is always a chance of picking something up. Wether your call/raise is profitable or it is not. This isnt an intuitive thing, its all about math. What do you mean with "cheap"? 1SB? Do you call 96o UTG? 96o is nearly always -EV. You have a pretty bad chance of making your straight, nearly no chance of making a flush (ok, a one card flush isnt wort anything with 9 or 6), your chance of making a set is minimal, 2pair still very small (2.2%) and all your pairs are very weak (weak kicker, or small pair with middle kicker). You win about 13% against 5 random hands.

Quote:
Bluffing is a very important skill and its good to develop it but you can't bluff weak players because they'll call.
unless you play mid/high limits, this is nearly the last skill i would develop.

Quote:
Know your outs. You don't have to be a math genius to get a feel on whether you can make the hand or not.
but you have to understand stuff like partial outs. But i agree, this point is important (much more than bluffing)
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Old Jan 13, 2005, 9:43pm   #27
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In a more experienced game I agree with almost everything you're saying but I think you're forgetting the situation 92 stated. He's virtually brand new at the game and so are his friends. Its a friendly game so telling him to play lots of hands for now will help him get a feel for what wins and what doesn't. I think you've gotten a little too advanced for him. Its better to get experience understanding the cards and situations before he starts calculating odds. I can't argue with the logic you're stating but losing a few times on bad hands and experiencing first-hand why you're losing is a lot more educational than someone throwing math figures at you. Thats why I stated later that his next step should be to limit his hands. I said the bluffing was/is important but to forget it for now. I don't think you realized that.

EDIT: I didn't see that 92 said he didn't understand pot odds.
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