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Old Mar 07, 2005, 1:20am   #11
Kazz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy
Quote:
Originally Posted by packattack88
Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy
you should neither be limping from early position nor calling raises from any position with small connectors.

Kc
Kill, I posted a hand history about small suited connectors in the specific hands strategy section.

These hands have huge implied odds and in no limit, it's not all about the cards, it's about position. There is nothing wrong with raising with these hands from ep, or calling raises with them because they can win you such a large pot.
Guess I must be wrong then.

Kc
Yes...yes you are. ;) I guess in FL you may be right, but in NL/PL these hands can be great as long as you are in a multi-way pot with people who will pay you off if you hit, and you don't play too many. If you play every single connector you get from every position, it'll probably hurt your results, and like any marginal hand I think it's more dangerous to play these from EP, but I think they're still playable even from EP some of the time.

On the other hand, if you choose not to play these hands but you're still mixing things up well enough that people don't think you're a rock and they'll still pay off your bigger hands, I think that's fine too. Not everyone likes playing small connectors, and you can win with or without them.

To answer NYMike's question "Are you trying to isolate a few players, or have as many in the pot as possible?", when you talk about isolating you're usually talking about one other player, not a few...but anyway, more people in the pot means better pot odds for you.

You're not going to hit with these hands most of the time, so you don't want to be heads up against someone with a stronger starting hand, you want to have a lot of money out there, with not much of it being yours, and a lot of people around to hit a second best hand if you hit yours.
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Old Mar 07, 2005, 10:55am   #12
killcrazy
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Originally Posted by Godster
It's entertaining and all that, but what are the odds that every time you read a post you are in disagreement w/ other players...?!
Just statistically speaking.
Probably high, if someone else has already said what I think there's little point me repeating it, so logically I'm most likely to post when I disagree

Kc
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Old Mar 07, 2005, 11:10am   #13
killcrazy
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I'm going to continue to contest this

With suited connectors you need two things, position and good implied odds.

Position because you need to be able to control the action to get chips into the pot when you hit, this is very difficult to do from early position and relatively simple from late position.

Implied odds are made up of two things; you want a number of people in the pot ahead of you to pay you off when you hit and you want to get to the flop as cheaply as possible.

In NL, the circumstances would have to be very odd for me to play connectors from early or earlymiddle position or to a raise. In PL the circumstances change enough that I might take them on to a raise from the cut off or button if there were a few guys in the hand already and they were likely to stay there.

As with everything else in poker this is effectively the baseline you play from, your play should change based on the people at your table. If you have a table full of monkeys who don't have a fold button then hands like this go up in value because your implied odds rocket, but for the most part this isn't the case, and so I pass.



Kc
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Old Mar 07, 2005, 6:05pm   #14
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suited connectors rock... check out this hand history:

***** Hand History for Game 1673619371 *****
$1000 NL Hold'em - Wednesday, March 02, 15:24:47 EDT 2005
Table Table 36752 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: dh222 ( $3810.5 )
Seat 3: DannyGTE ( $2044.5 )
Seat 5: strassa2 ( $1214 )
Seat 6: SwiftSteal ( $3175.5 )
Seat 10: Viggster ( $6163.5 )
Seat 8: Schmubare ( $493.5 )
Schmubare posts small blind [$5].
Viggster posts big blind [$10].
** Dealing down cards **
dh222 folds.
DannyGTE folds.
>You have options at Table 36727 Table!.
strassa2 folds.
SwiftSteal raises [$50].
mrjhc49: fold fold
>You have options at Table 36727 Table!.
Schmubare folds.
Viggster raises [$80].
SwiftSteal calls [$40].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6d, 4d, Qc ]
mrjhc49: here we go
>You have options at Table 36727 Table!.
Viggster checks.
mrjhc49: 100
XPokerRobotX: I like when these two play heads up
SwiftSteal bets [$150].
mrjhc49: sam ehere
JackzJax: swift has nuthin
>You have options at Table 36727 Table!.
Viggster calls [$150].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2h ]
JackzJax: bets when empoty
Viggster checks.
SwiftSteal is all-In [$2935.5]
mrjhc49: ace high wins here
Dan1mal: Swift has KQ
Viggster calls [$2935.5].
** Dealing River ** [ Js ]
>You have options at Table 36727 Table!.
JackzJax: checks when good
Viggster shows [ Qd, Qs ] three of a kind, queens.
SwiftSteal shows [ 3h, 5h ] a straight, two to six.
SwiftSteal wins $6354 from the main pot with a straight, two to six
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Old Mar 07, 2005, 8:58pm   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy
If you have a table full of monkeys who don't have a fold button then hands like this go up in value because your implied odds rocket, but for the most part this isn't the case, and so I pass.
Well, I guess we've got to the heart of the disagreement here! ;) I do expect to be paid off pretty often when I hit with suited connectors and low pairs, and that's why I'll play them more than you do. I guess either I play at more tables full of monkeys, or I'm expecting to be paid off more often than I really am...or maybe a little of both.

The other things you said in your last post were basically true though, and I think that's a decent way to play them, it's just on the tight end of the spectrum. It's a better idea for tournaments I think, but in cash games I think you can be a little looser with them *if you want to*. Playing them tighter like you suggest is just fine in cash games too, but I think that playing them from more positions and against raises *sometimes* (if you have decent odds to do it) will lead to a different kind of table image, and one that I usually prefer to have (and hopefully to more profit one way or another).

One more note: While I advocate playing suited connectors from all positions (more from later positions though), and even playing them against raises if your odds are reasonable (generally if you're not the only caller or it's a minimum raise and you're already in), these sometimes become a big hole in my game. If I start to play badly without realizing it, it usually means that I'm playing too many hands, and these are the types of hands that I often end up playing too many of in that situation.
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Old Mar 07, 2005, 11:25pm   #16
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Big debate here. I kinda like a little bit of what eveyone is saying. Madscout showed a good example of why they can be big. Though, Swiftsteal had a nice stack of chips to play with. You play them too often or wrong you can dwindle your stack away and get a little desperate. But if your afraid to gamble, it will be harder to make the big money. So I think you have to find that balance for playing suite or quasi suited connectors. The problem is that balance is probably subjective.
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Old Mar 08, 2005, 9:20am   #17
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I guess that's a good example, but only 1 hand beats QQ there -- hard to lay the set down. But QQ should've check-raised the flop not check-call since 2 diamonds hit the flop. I'm a novice who doesn't play anything close to that level, so I shouldn't be critiquing and hindsight is always 20/20.

However, this brings up an important question I have -- when the hero hits a nice flop (like top set) should the hero check/call or check/raise? I can see a check/call without the flush or str8 draw --- but with a draw I would think a check/raise is the optimal default play. But, in the QQ situation, the semi-bluff by 53s was already over the pot odds for a call, so is it okay to call if the opponent's bet is over the pot odds of a flush or str8 draw (i.e. 12 outs and less)?
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