THE FORUMS


German ForumsGeneral DiscussionStrategyFrench Forum
Old Mar 20, 2006, 12:29pm   #1
madmat3001
River Rat
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Reputation: 0
madmat3001
Default Bad Beat or Bad Mistake?

First of all: Hi everybody!
I've been reading this board and the articles for quite some while now and think it has already improved my game a lot. But I still have a loooong way to go. ;)
Anyway I played a 10+1 Sit'n'Go (10 handed) on Party yesterday as the following hand occured. (This is my first post on this board, so maybe you could be easy on me? ;) )

I didn't get the hand history, since I was just so pissed, that I had to log off and watch a movie instead... so I'm trying my best to just recap what happened.

At this point in the tourney the blinds were at 30/60 with all 10 still in play and nobody remarkably well stacked. I hadn't seriously played a hand yet, so i was only down a few big blinds.

I raise to 200 with AKo from EP. 1 MP caller.
Pot 490. Flop 37K rainbow. I lead out for another 200. MP calls (he has me covered by a few hundred).
Pot 890. Turn 3 completing the rainbow. I bet 500. MP raises to 1000.
Now, I was very inclined to just fold there, but thought to myself: What moron would call a raise preflop with a 3? So I pushed.
He called and showed 63o!!!
Needless to say the river was a blank and I was out of the tournament.

Should I have folded to his raise? Should I have bet mre strongly on the flop to force him out? Or should forget about it and hope to meet him again, calling preflop raises with 63o?
madmat3001 est déconnecté   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Don't like this ad? Register to make it go away!

Old Mar 20, 2006, 12:45pm   #2
mattjgallo
Flop Artist
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 87
Reputation: 0
mattjgallo
Send a message via ICQ to mattjgallo Send a message via AIM to mattjgallo Send a message via MSN to mattjgallo
Default

That's just a bad beat. You can't be expected to know he has a 3, let alone 63o. Maybe if you had a better read on him, i.e. later in the game, you might have been able to tell that his reraise was showing strength, but he seems pretty LAG playing 63o anyway, so he could be raising with anything to try to push you off.

I think you made the right move and were unlucky to lose that hand.
mattjgallo est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 20, 2006, 1:44pm   #3
madmat3001
River Rat
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Reputation: 0
madmat3001
Default

I'm glad to hear this...
I forgot to mention that I already had some kind of read on the guy. I can't remember exactly why, but I thought of him as beeing rather loose-passive, (not quite a callig station).
I was really expecting him to call the 500 on the turn. So his raise really made me think. I just reasoned that maybe he wasn't as passive as I had thought him to be. (My read was based on 3 hands max after all...)
Assuming I had a strong read on the guy, saying he was loose-passive, should I have laid it down?
I think the next important step to improving my game, would be mastering reads (and probably getting PT and AceHud).
madmat3001 est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 22, 2006, 12:04pm   #4
MmmmBalf
Doyle Look-alike
 
MmmmBalf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 411
Reputation: 10
MmmmBalf is on a distinguished road
Default

When you bet the $200, did you want him to just flat call? While it's true that you couldn't expect him to be holding 63o, it's your post flop play that's supposed to give you this information, and with a less than half pot bet, you got no information at all. You most likely have the best hand after the flop, but it's still only one pair. It's 2nd bottom on the food chain You don't wanna let anyone see the turn cheaply, as one pair can easily be outdrawn, even with an innocent looking rainbow board.

I would make a pot size bet here, $500. This would have let you know exactly where you stand. If he raises, you could have considered dropping the hand this early in the tourny. If he had nothing, he'd probably fold and you take down the pot. Much safer to take it down there with only one pair, and it's a decent pot at this level. But the $200 bet put no pressure on him, especially having you covered for chips. Flat calling is your biggest fear, as it gives you nothing, although calling a $500 bet gives you a lot more than him calling a $200 bet. At least you'd know he had some sort of hand, a set or even only a lower pair. Then one of those cards falling would give you cause for concern.

It's not only him having a 3 you had to worry about either. With a paired board, you have to consider a full house. He could have been sitting there with 77, something he would have called a raise with. Passive players will even just call a raise with KK. With a set, a passive player will often just call a flop bet, then when the 3 hits, giving him a full house, he raises. Did you consider that? Always dangerous pushing after a raise with a paired board. Unless you have a really good read on the player and can put him on a bluff.

Hope this helps, and maybe someone else will give some more ideas.
MmmmBalf est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 22, 2006, 3:41pm   #5
madmat3001
River Rat
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Reputation: 0
madmat3001
Default

Thanks, I really appreciate the comments!

I have to admit, the hand has kept bugging me for some reason (not my first bad beat or anything) and I came to the same conclusion. In the situation I felt like my hand was the best and wanted him to call, which might have been a mistake on one hand.

On the other hand, I still believe this was a +EV move (maybe not the optimum one, but maybe there never is an optimum at all...?) but it meant taking exactly the risks you mentioned.

I guess at a higher level of play this move may actually become less +EV (even -EV) but at the low level (10+1 Party is considered to be very weak play, right?) the range of hands that people usually call PF raises with leads to me being way ahead most of the time.

So I think as long as I get called with 63o on that flop, I do want them to do just that...

Then again, I'm just a advanced beginner at poker, so I may be dead wrong on this!?
madmat3001 est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 22, 2006, 5:24pm   #6
AMDeluxe
Doyle Look-alike
 
AMDeluxe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Oxford
Posts: 294
Reputation: 0
AMDeluxe
Default

For sure you want 63o to call AK. Every time. And sometimes they'll suck out on you - that's just a fact of life. But you want to make it as expensive - as statistically unprofitable - for them as possible. In a $10+1, a lot of people will call to the river with TP-rag kicker or middle pair, so you can get a lot of chips out of these situations. In your position, I'd bet $400 (if the flop was more dangerous I might overbet the pot), and to be honest I'd hope he called me down. It's very likely I've got him outkicked, or he's on a lower pair. Every now and then he'll have a set, or he'll suck out - take it like a man, open up a new tourney, and don't worry too much about it.
AMDeluxe est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Mar 22, 2006, 5:31pm   #7
AMDeluxe
Doyle Look-alike
 
AMDeluxe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Oxford
Posts: 294
Reputation: 0
AMDeluxe
Default

Notwithstanding the above, when the 3 pairs the board (especially after a low flop bet) you have to worry a little. Having bet 200 on the flop, you might get away with 300-400 on the turn without showing weakness, and it makes it easier to fold if he pushes. My experience is that while some people will go for big bluffs like that, more often it's that they don't have the finesse to extract chips more subtly when they're winning. If you started the pot with maybe 1800, you've still got 1000+ chips left - enough to make it worth folding and waiting for a better spot.
AMDeluxe est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 5:04pm. vBulletin 3.7.4 Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.