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Old May 09, 2006, 9:33am   #1
Jimmy Dodger
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Default Odd hand. Shortstacked, should I have called this?

The tourney - Live £10 rebuy super sat to the WSOP.

Table Context.

We were about a half hour into the freeze-out period. Someone had sat down about 5 or 6 hands ago for another table with a massive stack. Had seen the flop in nearly every hand. 1 particular hand was interesting. Board came 4,5,9 rainbow, someone bet, the big stack called. then came a 2, someone went all in, the big stack called and showed K10 - the other players pockets 8s held up on the river.

A couple of hands later the blinds were 150/300 and I had about 3200 chips, so it was time to do something.

I picked up AJ suited and as no-one had raised in front of me put in 1200, the big stack who was in the small blind called and everyone else folded.

Flop came 2,2,9 rainbow. Big stack checks. I raise 1000. Big stack calls.
Turn was 6, big stack checks, and so do I.
River 4, Big stack raises me for my last remaining 1000....

Should I call or fold?

Let me know what you think and I tell you what happened and why I played the hand like I did.
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Old May 09, 2006, 11:05pm   #2
Demonnic
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I don't think I could call off my last 1000 chips, but at that point you're fairly deep into the pot. What were you saving the last 1000 chips for? Now you've only got about 3 big blinds left and are in even deeper trouble for the next several hands. Of course, the guy did make one fairly loose call on the flop in the other hand you posted, so I'm assuming you'd felt the guy may do it again if you pushed with your unpaired AJ.

Honestly, I could see both sides of the coin, but I probably would have pushed all in when I made the previous bet or simply checked it around and been willing to give it up since I didn't hit the flop. 10x the big blind is a bit low, but not critical mass yet.
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Old May 10, 2006, 12:09am   #3
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Preflop I think you're ok but on the flop I'm either AI or trying to check it down, why bother betting the 1000? Easy call on the river on the off chance A high will win the pot, what are you going to do with 1000 chips and these blinds?

Edit: Dom, in tourney situations you need to factor in both the sum of the SB and BB or 'M'. His M was going to be around 2 if he folded meaning he could survive 2 more orbits before being blinded out. When your M is this low even if you double up you are in very big trouble.
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Old May 10, 2006, 12:20am   #4
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yeah, that's true, and I should have considered the small blind, but either way it sounds like we pretty much said the same thing, except you'd make the call on the river. To be honest, looking back at it now, if I'd gotten in that deep I might as well, but again I probably would have checked it down or gone AI on the flop, betting half your stack to try and steal isn't so hot if it doesn't work. Esecially as it isn't even quite half the size of the pot at that point.
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Old May 10, 2006, 9:41am   #5
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Thanks for your advice guys, in hindsight you might be right.

What I was thinking at the time though was this, if they had a low pair they would have re-raised before the flop. Although they were loose, I didn't think they'd call a raise of 4*BB with just a couple of low cards. So they either had a high pair or a couple of high cards (10 and up).

AK and AQ probably would have put me all in before the flop as well so chances are I was either facing a couple of high cards and was ahead, or a high pair and behind. Since the chances of them having a higher pair were a lot lower than them having a couple of high cards I had beat, I was fairly sure I was ahead at that point. With fairly good odds to win the hand. I may even have had them dominated (if they had KJ,QJ, or A10).

After my pre-flop raise I was down to 2200 I'd only have an M of about 4 if I did nothing. The post flop raise was to my thinking a value bet, one which I wouldn't mind a call, and would make them pay to try and catch up. I was expecting an all-in at that point - which I'd happily call - since the flop made my bet look like an obvious bluff.

What through me off, was the call, followed by the raise on the river. Something didn't seem quite right - but by this point my stack was so low, the chance of them bluffing didn't have to be that high to make this a clear call.

I called, they turned over 10,2 they'd hit trips on the flop and had been slow playing me all the way. I didn't say a word even though they acted like calling a big raise with 10-2 against a short stack (hence low implied odds) was a good call "to try and keep the small stacks small".

So anyway I bit my tongue and went home to try and figure out what I could have done different.
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Old May 10, 2006, 11:49am   #6
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I think the key factor here was identifying what sort of player you are up against. You notice that he has been seeing nearly every flop, so you cannot put him on a hand. When he calls your pf raise, you try to put him on a standard range of hands - pp or face cards - but LAG is likely to call you with anything and try to outplay you on the flop.

Having identified him as this type of player, I would be very careful with c-betting a flop of rags, as he could well be holding one of them. And you have already identified that he is not going to lay down a hand even when all he has is overcards.

With your M down to about 7 I think you should have pushed all-in pre-flop. If you value bet with AJ and don't hit, you are leaving yourself even more shortstacked. Your raise to 1200 leaves you only 2000 to play post flop, not even enough to bet the pot when you push all-in. So an all-in on the flop is not going to push anyone off who has hit even a tiny part of the board.

I think the mistake here was making a standard pre-flop play with AJs when you were too shortstacked to follow it through post-flop.
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Old May 10, 2006, 12:05pm   #7
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Thinking about this I think you might be right. M around 7 or 8 is a tough one, if it was 5 or less I would have been all in with any Ace in this situation. I think the blinds crept up on me a bit and I hadn't quite adjusted my play to the size of my stack.
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Old May 16, 2006, 4:14pm   #8
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Agressive players are more prone to slowplay. Always watch out if a guy who sees every flop starts checking.
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