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Old Jun 13, 2006, 6:34pm   #11
BZ
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No I'm not on Tilt, and don't really care about the hand it happens all the time, whats your name on Poker Stars?
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Old Jun 13, 2006, 6:35pm   #12
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Killcrazy ;)
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Old Jun 13, 2006, 6:41pm   #13
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BZ,

I went a little crazy on your comments, I've just become a little steamed/tilt with vicious posting.

People here only and always want to help, but trashing them for giving an opinion is only going to stop others from trying to help.

Also, we all read so many "bad beat" stories that yours isn't really "up there" with the best of them.

Yous looks like one of those unavoidable beats because no matter who had the hand, both were going to be there til the end.

Actually, someone (XA? Northview?) did a nice long post about hands just like this, where sure you win a lot from it, but if it rolls the other way you are going to lose a lot with it ( ie. set over set, etc etc) and what is the true EV of it.. something along those lines anyways.

I asked if you were still on TILT because of your caustic reply, when surely you realized they were trying to be helpful.

If you found their/my/whatever reply to be that far off the markm, ignore it or respond in a manner where someone else who reads it can learn from it.
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Old Jun 13, 2006, 9:49pm   #14
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Yes you had a 98+% chance to win on the flop, and you let him catch up in order to take more out of his stack. Many would play this the exact same way, and have very legit arguements for this. In my experience, it is better to lead in this situation. You lessen the "bad beat" possibilities. Had you lead at this pot post flop, you would have won a small pot and not had this issue. Doyle Brunson talks about this in Super System II, and gives the same advice...lead with the set.

As an aside, I was playing in home game within the last few months. I picked up 6h7h on the button. Everyone limped. The flop was Ac 8h 8d. Checked around. The turn was 9h. Minimum bet by the UTG called in four places. River was 5h. Now checked around to me. I lead with a half pot bet to make it smell like a steal so that I might induce a crying call. SB wakes up and raises, everyone folds, I reraise, he gets it all in, I call. He had flopped quad 8s, he let me catch up to the immortal, and I busted him. Does that happen often? No, but had he popped it on the turn he would have won a small pot and not gone broke.

My point is "walking the dog" works, but when they start to catch up, MAKE THEM PAY when you have the best of it, IMHO.

Oh yeah, it was a statistical bad beat.
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Old Jun 13, 2006, 10:40pm   #15
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Originally Posted by BZ
I don't even care about losing the hand, but you guys saying a runner runner fullhouse with him betting into me is not a bad beat that's just bs..
Hey man. Sorry about your loss. Unlike some I will say this is a bad beat at least in principle, but only IF you don't play it so poorly. I'm not going to justify your opponent's play, nor criticize it, because that's not really the point.

I've recently posted a 5/10 cash game hand in limit that was pretty similar (he needed runners to the full house to win) and of course the result was the same, he caught them and cost me a $200+ pot.

I think I got bad beat. Why isn't your hand a bad beat given how it was played? Here's why:

Here's the main difference - I didn't slowplay, I bet to get every chip in the pot that I could at every time that I could.
You need to learn when to slowplay. Slowplaying isn't something you do just because you're ahead and there's not a lot of draws out there. Granted, this is the situation, but you also want to slowplay when slowplaying will get you the most action for the least risk of less action. If slowplaying were correct in this situation, then you'd have reason to bemoan your loss. But it was the wrong play.

In this situation, if you check/raise the flop instead of flat-calling its a much smarter play. If indeed your opponent has an ace, at this level you should expect a payoff with your set. Only if you think your opponent is bluffing should you slowplay, because then the only way to get the max chips is to get a bet on the turn from another bluff. Slowplaying needlessly is a common beginner's error, slowplaying because it's safe but not considering if it's right strategically.

I would have either bet out hoping to get raised on the flop, or I would have check/raised on the flop. Not only are you then protecting your hand against (although unlikely) draws, you're also maximizing the chips you extract from someone overplaying a single pair.

On the turn all the chips should be going in no matter whether you're betting or check/raising at this point. This was a ridiculous error - you only had 180 chips at the end, why the heck didn't they get pushed in with the 1000 on the turn? That's just weird.

Do you see why slowplaying is wrong here? It's poor poker. And if you play poorly you can't then turn around and criticize your opponent and bemoan your loss. You really can't misplay this hand any worse than you did, unless you folded. Did you make any effort to maximize your pot? No, you check/called along for no reason. Did you protect your hand *if* he had a draw? No, you check/called along for no reason.

The "perfect poker" play here is to be aggressive and get paid off with your monster. As far as I'm concerned, anyone can get lucky enough to hit a set, but unless you play the hand properly you have no recourse to complain about bad beats and your "donk" opponents.

If you pushed and he called with At in that spot, and the same thing happened, I wouldn't have said anything more than "you played it properly, you got unlucky, sorry to hear it". Many others here would refuse to say anything but "don't post this" or "this isn't a bad beat" even if you had played it properly, the reason being that some people have become so wrapped up in the idea that "in the long run, luck evens out" or "there's no such thing as a bad beat" they don't see one even when there is one to see.

Granted, I'm on their side this time because you misplayed this as bad as you could have, but don't think that the only reason someone might say it's not a bad beat is statistical. Some people do (foolishly) see it that way, but some of us look at the big picture of how you actually played, and in this case both sets of people are telling you the same thing. So listen.
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Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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Old Jun 13, 2006, 10:41pm   #16
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Why on Earth would you want to win a small pot with quad 8s?
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Old Jun 14, 2006, 10:46am   #17
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Ok, thanks for the opinions, but I never once criticized my opponent, I just said I thought it was bs, now that I look back at it I probably should of bet or re raised on the flop, but the 120 chips or whatever on the turn, it didn't really matter i mean who's gonna fold with 120 left on the River, but I guess the 90 to 10 perecent advantage I had with him shoving his 95 perecent of his stack on the turn doesn't matter.
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Old Jun 15, 2006, 1:14am   #18
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The quad 8 example is thus, he was right to let the field catch up. But only to the turn. The board then presented with a POSSIBLE straight flush. Not that you have to worry about that MOST of the time. But he has to raise it to half the pot on the turn. Otherwise he is letting the POSSIBLE happen, without charging the drawer.

I mostly play PLO8. My stats over the last 4 weeks, show 11 quads. I won at least the high 10 times. But I did lose 1 time, and boy do I remember that bastard. Flopped quad tens with a J, so no low. I check called on the flop. The river was a baby. I check raised and called an all in. The bettor had JJ, and rivered the case J for quads over quads. I got all my (and more importantly his) money in with the best hand, and he drew the one card that could beat me(and took most of my stack). So immortals do lose, and IMHO, you only let them draw only for cheap until 4th street.

Additionally, I have seen quads over quads and straight flushes over quads at least 6 times in the last 3 months. All of which were played horribly until the river when the players then got all their money in. Had they popped it earlier the results would have different. Let them catch up, but make them pay on the turn when you have the best of it. If they out draw you with the worst of it, so be it. But don't make it be easy for them. Because in those pots one will get busted.
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Old Jun 15, 2006, 1:32am   #19
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Oh and as a point of clarification on the example were my quads got out drawn, the only reason I checked the turn was I've played with this player many times, and from my notes and from the texture of the game I felt he would absolutely bet on the turn. Otherwise I would have potted it on the turn.
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Old Jun 15, 2006, 5:53am   #20
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Not to add fuel to the fire, I'm not even that worried about the way you played it. Yah you shoulda got your money in earlier, but no one is folding that turn to you, and yah it sucks that he hit runner runner to bet you, but thats just poker. If you play enough hands someone runner runners you every single day you play.
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