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Old Aug 28, 2006, 4:19am   #1
TallJohn
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Default Still working on value betting

I'm with madcow...I just can't seem to beat this game despite a (perhaps self-delusional) understanding of concepts in this forum, WWLH, SSH, etc. However, I keep plugging along, hoping to start getting some better results as I gain experience. Here's a hand that has me stumped:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero caps, Button calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.
Flop: (17.50 SB) 5, 2, J (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, MP3 calls.
Turn: (11.75 BB) 2 (3 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, MP3 folds, Hero calls.
River: (15.75 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 17.75 BB

Button is not hyper-aggressive (22.0/6.8/2.3/59). How do I put him on his hand here? I took his 3-bet (after I raised 2 limpers) to mean AK-AQ or AA-TT. I'm ahead of 30 of these hands (16 x AK, 8 x AQ, 6 x TT) and drawing almost dead behind 15 (6 x AA, 6 x KK, 3 x JJ). I C/R the flop for value (putting button as a likely bettor and I'm probably ahead with no obvious draws). Villain's turn raise is what I'm struggling to interpret. I don't think he's going to raise with any of the hands that I have beat, so I went passive...overpair with no reasonable straight or flush is still worth crying call given this pot. I'll post the actual result later, but given the info here, did I play this right?
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Old Aug 28, 2006, 4:45am   #2
madscout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TallJohn View Post
I'm with madcow...I just can't seem to beat this game despite a (perhaps self-delusional) understanding of concepts in this forum, WWLH, SSH, etc. However, I keep plugging along, hoping to start getting some better results as I gain experience. Here's a hand that has me stumped:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero caps, Button calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.
Flop: (17.50 SB) 5, 2, J (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, MP3 calls.
Turn: (11.75 BB) 2 (3 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, MP3 folds, Hero calls.
River: (15.75 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 17.75 BB

Button is not hyper-aggressive (22.0/6.8/2.3/59). How do I put him on his hand here? I took his 3-bet (after I raised 2 limpers) to mean AK-AQ or AA-TT. I'm ahead of 30 of these hands (16 x AK, 8 x AQ, 6 x TT) and drawing almost dead behind 15 (6 x AA, 6 x KK, 3 x JJ). I C/R the flop for value (putting button as a likely bettor and I'm probably ahead with no obvious draws). Villain's turn raise is what I'm struggling to interpret. I don't think he's going to raise with any of the hands that I have beat, so I went passive...overpair with no reasonable straight or flush is still worth crying call given this pot. I'll post the actual result later, but given the info here, did I play this right?
I think betting the flop would be for value, but check raising the flop is not for value. If he has AK he is most likely going to check behind against so many players and hope to spike a king or ace. If you check and he does bet then you are probably behind (given your assumed range) so why check raise? If he has AA, KK, or JJ it is tough luck, but I think you lost a little more than you needed to against these hands the way you played it.

I would have bet the flop, got raised, and then called down and not been very happy about it.
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Old Aug 28, 2006, 5:04am   #3
madcow16
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I'm with madscout on this one. You were the original preflop aggressor and capped, so why not lead the flop? Also, I think your read on his preflop 3-betting hands might be a little too liberal in including AQ. Though you do have only a small sample size, 6.8% is fairly tight preflop (or maybe I'm wrong since this is LH as opposed to SH). Looks more like JJ to me than AA or KK since I'd be more confident to raise the turn with a set after getting c/r on the flop, but if I had AA or KK I'd probably put in a 3-bet there.
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Old Aug 28, 2006, 6:06am   #4
XA_kid
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I would lead the flop, and call down a raise. He either has JJ ot AJ here is my feeling, though AA/KK are still real possibilities. I would actually be very tempted to fold to a raise on the turn, but that would probably be a mistake at this level with that size of the pot.
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Old Aug 28, 2006, 6:14am   #5
TallJohn
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As I said, perhaps self-delusional. At any rate, XA wins the "you guessed it prize"...AJs and I'm a happy camper. Thanks for the insights.
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Old Aug 28, 2006, 8:35pm   #6
madcow16
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Wow, AJ? Well, at least you found someone to really spew their chips to you =D. And I have to also say, PP is infinitely better than pokerroom.
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