THE FORUMS


German ForumsGeneral DiscussionStrategyFrench Forum
Old Nov 15, 2006, 10:36pm   #1
Notjitsu
Professional
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,092
Reputation: 120
Notjitsu will become famous soon enoughNotjitsu will become famous soon enough
Default By the Book poker

In college, I went and played chess a couple times with some kids who played it a lot. I'm far from a chessmaster. I'm better than the average person because I'm generally good at games, but these people studied the game, and therefore new all that gambit and opening book crap. I was definitely the inferior player.

And there is no happy ego story of me going 20-0. I lost about as much as I won probably a bit more. But if I'd played 'the best' I could, I wouldn't have fared nearly as well. Given the fact that these people studied chess and knew the right thing to do in a bunch of common situations (which i didn't and still don't know)...I went out of my way to get out of opening book as fast as possible. My goal wasn't to play better than them from the git-go, it was to put them in situations where they weren't very often and we'd be matching more skill (where we were likely fairly even) than knowledge (where I was waaaay behind). And even though I sacrificed position in doing this, the results were better than if I had just tried to play my best straightforward game, where they would've ground me down for wins at a much higher than 50% rate.

This kind of situation comes up in poker a lot. Often times, if you are the better poker player, you don't have to be better at the game. A lot of good players are good players because they know the 'right' way to play. The problem with the 'right' way, is that it presupposes a lot of things...most importantly, that your opponents are trying to play the 'right' way too, and you are just better at it. But if you start doing things that aren't 'right', then what is 'right' often becomes wrong, and they have to adapt. And then nobody is playing by the book anymore. It becomes a matter of who's the better poker player. And while you have given them a small advantage by making less than optimal plays, if they are rigid or shortsighted you can more than make up for them by adapting to this non-standard situation better.

I was playing 5 card draw, and some guy raised, and I called with JJ from the button. He checked, and I bet my unimproved Jacks into him. He called with QQ, and won.

Another player was feeling helpful, and explained to me that I shouldn't bet JJ because I'm only going to get called by hands that beat me, and only hands that I have beat will fold.

But my goal was not to make the optimal play. My goal was to either steal the pot, or show that I'm attempting to steal with JJ. Because next time I bet when they check to me, how will that impact the range of hands they will call with? They'll certainly be in for a decision with QQ. Because I'm betting with all kinds of stuff that I shouldn't be, they have to adjust from what's right 'by the book' to what's right versus me. And the problem that this creates, is that the book doesn't tell them the difference. They have to figure it out on their own...and while I'm not nearly as good at 5 card draw as they may be, I am a better poker player than they are I suspect. And the farther away from the book we get, the bigger my advantage may become.

So the moral of this story: Become a good poker player on top of knowing how to play good poker. The two are very different, and will eventually manifest themselves in a positive or negative way. Whether you are the one running over a table, or you're the person who can't deal with the guy who always raises whenever you come into the pot.

Sensing weakness and strength and acting on it, identifying what your opponents are doing and thinking and optimizing your play to that, pushing the aggression where your opponents are not used to dealing with it. Setting an image that will make your opponents uncomfortable..

I realized how lacking forums can be in covering those types of things from reading the session of handhistories that a couple people sent me. Reducing people to 3 word descriptions and then expecting people to make correct decisions based on a single hand playing out just isn't going to teach anybody anything spectacular. The totality of the game is incredibly important, and an often untalked about aspect...and I think its a good idea to remember that there is nothing wrong with playing 'by the book', just remember that the book is far from an all encompassing source, and that you should look to expand and experiment when you get the chance.
Notjitsu est déconnecté   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Don't like this ad? Register to make it go away!

Old Nov 15, 2006, 10:49pm   #2
Frogboy4L
spewing station
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Fading the flush draw
Posts: 1,497
Reputation: 0
Frogboy4L
Send a message via AIM to Frogboy4L
Default

There are actually situations where I'd bet something like 88 there, because damn sure JJ- is folding the showdown they'd win if we checked it down. That's in FL though.

I agree with more or less the entirety of this post and find it super valuble.

Are you still doing the HH review thing for charity?
__________________
Blogging again, updated frequently. Annotations of spew:

(the link works now)

frogboy4Lpoker.blogspot.com
Frogboy4L est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 15, 2006, 10:58pm   #3
jimmytrick
Professional
 
jimmytrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,248
Reputation: 395
jimmytrick is just really nicejimmytrick is just really nicejimmytrick is just really nicejimmytrick is just really nice
Default

Nice post.
__________________

jimmytrick est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 15, 2006, 11:55pm   #4
shads
public enemy
 
shads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: London, England
Posts: 2,308
Reputation: 83
shads will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to shads Send a message via Skype™ to shads
Default

Another Notjitsu classic, thanks.
__________________
shad, shads
1. Any of various marine fish resembling a large herring but with a deeper body.

http://shadspoker.blogspot.com/
shads est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 16, 2006, 8:06pm   #5
MRVEGAS
Dude
 
MRVEGAS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Rockabilly Highway
Posts: 3,362
Reputation: 626
MRVEGAS is a name known to allMRVEGAS is a name known to allMRVEGAS is a name known to allMRVEGAS is a name known to allMRVEGAS is a name known to allMRVEGAS is a name known to all
Send a message via AIM to MRVEGAS
Default

What shads said. Your post give me the ability to "think" about the game better than i "think" about it already. If that made any sense.

Is there anyway for a few of us participate in a LIVE round table of discussions every so often i would really enjoy it.


MRV
__________________
“The weak are the most treacherous of us all. They come to the strong and drain them. They are bottomless. They are insatiable. They are always parched and always bitter. They are everyone’s concern and like vampires they suck our life’s blood.” Bette Davis
MRVEGAS est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 16, 2006, 8:36pm   #6
acehole_76
I found Kc...............
 
acehole_76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: now bring back northview
Posts: 7,632
Reputation: 2310
acehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notjitsu View Post
In college, I went and played chess a couple times with some kids who played it a lot. I'm far from a chessmaster. I'm better than the average person because I'm generally good at games, but these people studied the game, and therefore new all that gambit and opening book crap. I was definitely the inferior player.

And there is no happy ego story of me going 20-0. I lost about as much as I won probably a bit more. But if I'd played 'the best' I could, I wouldn't have fared nearly as well. Given the fact that these people studied chess and knew the right thing to do in a bunch of common situations (which i didn't and still don't know)...I went out of my way to get out of opening book as fast as possible. My goal wasn't to play better than them from the git-go, it was to put them in situations where they weren't very often and we'd be matching more skill (where we were likely fairly even) than knowledge (where I was waaaay behind). And even though I sacrificed position in doing this, the results were better than if I had just tried to play my best straightforward game, where they would've ground me down for wins at a much higher than 50% rate.

This kind of situation comes up in poker a lot. Often times, if you are the better poker player, you don't have to be better at the game. A lot of good players are good players because they know the 'right' way to play. The problem with the 'right' way, is that it presupposes a lot of things...most importantly, that your opponents are trying to play the 'right' way too, and you are just better at it. But if you start doing things that aren't 'right', then what is 'right' often becomes wrong, and they have to adapt. And then nobody is playing by the book anymore. It becomes a matter of who's the better poker player. And while you have given them a small advantage by making less than optimal plays, if they are rigid or shortsighted you can more than make up for them by adapting to this non-standard situation better.

I was playing 5 card draw, and some guy raised, and I called with JJ from the button. He checked, and I bet my unimproved Jacks into him. He called with QQ, and won.

Another player was feeling helpful, and explained to me that I shouldn't bet JJ because I'm only going to get called by hands that beat me, and only hands that I have beat will fold.

But my goal was not to make the optimal play. My goal was to either steal the pot, or show that I'm attempting to steal with JJ. Because next time I bet when they check to me, how will that impact the range of hands they will call with? They'll certainly be in for a decision with QQ. Because I'm betting with all kinds of stuff that I shouldn't be, they have to adjust from what's right 'by the book' to what's right versus me. And the problem that this creates, is that the book doesn't tell them the difference. They have to figure it out on their own...and while I'm not nearly as good at 5 card draw as they may be, I am a better poker player than they are I suspect. And the farther away from the book we get, the bigger my advantage may become.

So the moral of this story: Become a good poker player on top of knowing how to play good poker. The two are very different, and will eventually manifest themselves in a positive or negative way. Whether you are the one running over a table, or you're the person who can't deal with the guy who always raises whenever you come into the pot.

Sensing weakness and strength and acting on it, identifying what your opponents are doing and thinking and optimizing your play to that, pushing the aggression where your opponents are not used to dealing with it. Setting an image that will make your opponents uncomfortable..

I realized how lacking forums can be in covering those types of things from reading the session of handhistories that a couple people sent me. Reducing people to 3 word descriptions and then expecting people to make correct decisions based on a single hand playing out just isn't going to teach anybody anything spectacular. The totality of the game is incredibly important, and an often untalked about aspect...and I think its a good idea to remember that there is nothing wrong with playing 'by the book', just remember that the book is far from an all encompassing source, and that you should look to expand and experiment when you get the chance.

Which book?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
obviously, it's always my fault whenever anyone does anything stupid around here.

fucking morons every one of you. there isn't a man in this village that i wouldn't feed into an incinerator for no reason other than to get rid of them.

Kc
acehole_76 est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2006, 3:18pm   #7
ggnh
Disco
 
ggnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Perth Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,728
Reputation: 626
ggnh is a name known to allggnh is a name known to allggnh is a name known to allggnh is a name known to allggnh is a name known to allggnh is a name known to all
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRVEGAS View Post
What shads said. Your post give me the ability to "think" about the game better than i "think" about it already. If that made any sense.

Is there anyway for a few of us participate in a LIVE round table of discussions every so often i would really enjoy it.


MRV
Yeah that sounds like a great idea.. we should try and set up a mIRC channel or something. Schedule a time or it would even be a great way for some "tutoring" or what not for those who are bored waiting for a hand to play
__________________
<Notjitsu> you are like a good luck charm for the rest of the table.
<Gus>I think Id cc 2 times. I hate all options. I hate that hand. I even hate poker, sometimes.
<Rabidcow>too much collusion in heads up sit n goes u never know what the other guy has for cards, becarefull
<Ozone> I dunno... fuckin' poker
<Kc>this one is much closer to good advice but still introduces some unnecessary shortcuts across the grass for us to cover our boots in dog shit.
ggnh est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2006, 8:52pm   #8
acehole_76
I found Kc...............
 
acehole_76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: now bring back northview
Posts: 7,632
Reputation: 2310
acehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Here is my two cents on how to get someone out of there comfort zone:

Make your opponent make big decisions on the turn. Most player play ok preflop, although a bit loose, it not as costly, because it is hard to have them worse then 20%. Now most players want to make there play on the flop and take down the pot right there either with a C bet, semibluff, or even made hands like TPBK. If you raise them on the flop most players make good decsions to call, reraise, or fold. Now if you just call on the flop, this is where I see play really drop off. One of the main things I look for is, who will fire the second bullet, and who wont, who will call a reraise on the turn, and who just gives up. I see more bad calls, raises, and folds on the turn then I do on the flop, and since you see alot more flops then 4th street, it is a great place to take advantage of these bad plays. To be effective you have to do somethings that may be agaisnt your normal game ei slow play big hands, just call with big draws, call with nothing (that can be hard). All can be dangerous, but also rewarding, because like I said the turn is the most misplayed street IMO, in NLHM today...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
obviously, it's always my fault whenever anyone does anything stupid around here.

fucking morons every one of you. there isn't a man in this village that i wouldn't feed into an incinerator for no reason other than to get rid of them.

Kc
acehole_76 est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 28, 2006, 11:54pm   #9
Xigol
Grinder
 
Xigol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 612
Reputation: 0
Xigol
Send a message via MSN to Xigol
Default

I agree with acehole. If someone fires a cbet and gets called (when they have nothing) The turn scares them. Do they bet again to push you off? Or give up.

I find a lot of people even with some sort of hand, mid pair or TPBK will check the turn to see how much you bet and plan on calling or raising.

However, a massive raise usually gets them to fold as they don't like to risk it. They rarely will bet the flop then check the turn if they have something, unless the turn helps them and they want to slowplay.
Xigol est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 3:02pm. vBulletin 3.7.4 Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.