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Old Oct 10, 2007, 5:16pm   #11
MRVEGAS
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This man deserves serious consideration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr5hQg8Ayrc


Seriously, i just hope they dont change press secretary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KuVc68eu-Q


Giuliani will get the republican nomination, the end. (not an endorsement, just the way its headed.)


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Old Oct 10, 2007, 8:30pm   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRVEGAS View Post
This man deserves serious consideration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr5hQg8Ayrc


Seriously, i just hope they dont change press secretary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KuVc68eu-Q


Giuliani will get the republican nomination, the end. (not an endorsement, just the way its headed.)


MRV
Not a big fan of this guy. He's aware of some of the problems, but he turns that into nationalistic xenophobia and he helps perpetuate the "blue collar myth". Guys, when I talk about "boorish" on IRC, this is what I mean, except that I'm like a 2 out of 10 and this guy is an 8. Obviously he's just some guy with a video camera that does it for Mr.V (and more power to him on that).


As for Mr. Beaks, you really need to understand the background of Libertarianism to not take some of the stuff he says the wrong way. For instance on Nationalized Medicine, he's against it because he's against the government being in control of it, not because he doesn't think everyone should have the ability to attain health care. He's a doctor! It's one of those situations wherein by seemingly helping the margin, you actually hurt the margin (and move more people into it). On this matter I can understand why some people would be so reticent, but you really have to watch the hour long video for more depth.

As for Libertarianism, there's an excellent FAQ on the most extreme model, often known as Anarcho-Capitalism, on the 2+2 politics forum. Dr. Paul doesn't fall in line with everything, but he does with most of it.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...22&page=0&vc=1

As for his isolationist views, he is not xenophobic. He would foster friendship and free trade with all nations. What he is against is nation-building, the meddling with other country's political affairs. We must understand that the US doesn't just wage wars to nation-build, the coup d'état in Venezuela is a good example of this. You could also look at dozens of other recent examples.

As for Giuliani, I would tend to agree it's going in that direction (unfortunately). However, I don't see how he can possibly win the General Election (not that I would want him to, he is such a tool). So we're gonna be stuck with Hillary Clinton most likely. While I do think she would be much more of a diplomatic force (a good thing), I really don't trust her to be responsible for ending the war (a very bad thing). Finally, I see the various programs she would create as being "better" than those created by Bush, but they would still be mostly pork and innefficiency.

Ron Paul is the only person that seems to *actually* care about the US economy.
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Old Oct 10, 2007, 8:35pm   #13
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Do you really think Hillary will get it Skeptix?
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Old Oct 10, 2007, 9:09pm   #14
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Ron Paul is the only person that seems to *actually* care about the US economy.
He wants to bring back the gold standard. Most economists will tell you that's a heinously stupid idea.
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Old Oct 10, 2007, 9:11pm   #15
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Not a big fan of this guy. He's aware of some of the problems, but he turns that into nationalistic xenophobia and he helps perpetuate the "blue collar myth". Guys, when I talk about "boorish" on IRC, this is what I mean, except that I'm like a 2 out of 10 and this guy is an 8. Obviously he's just some guy with a video camera that does it for Mr.V (and more power to him on that).

You're serious, OMG. This guy to me is like MC at the local comedy club, hes just funny, like hahaha, loosen up and have a laugh type funny. "Lighten up Francis" Like poor mans Andrew dice Clay/Macys thanksgiving parade type thing.


Clinton/Edwards will be the ticket that wins. America just isnt ready for a woman and a black man in the white house at the same time and we all know it, although Obama is paving the way to become the first African American President. It wont be so much Hilliary winning but Bill Clintons wife winning, i would bet we'll see and hear a lot from slick Willie when they come down the stretch. The economy flurished during Bills 8yrs, whether he had much to with it or not thats what will resonate with the voters.



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Old Oct 10, 2007, 10:11pm   #16
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Do you really think Hillary will get it Skeptix?
Yes.

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He wants to bring back the gold standard. Most economists will tell you that's a heinously stupid idea.
He doesn't want to bring back "the" gold standard. He actually understands some of the flaws inherent in the original gold standard. What he wants is an American dollar based on some form of "hard asset", as opposed to just printing the money at will.

Also, if you listen to him talk about the "inflation tax", this is a result of the FED printing the money. Many of these economists have some sort of financial interest in the inflation tax. The current system makes things run better on Wall Street, but that's not the economy, that's rich people. You can feel free to quote me some sources of legit (not full of shit/conflict of interest) economists defending our current system. But as of now, I am of the opinion that these people are the spokespeople for the rich.

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You're serious, OMG. This guy to me is like MC at the local comedy club, hes just funny, like hahaha, loosen up and have a laugh type funny. "Lighten up Francis" Like poor mans Andrew dice Clay/Macys thanksgiving parade type thing.
If he was doing this at a comedy club I would think it quite different. You might find him funny, I find him to be an example of the dumbing down of the American public.

Quote:
Clinton/Edwards will be the ticket that wins. America just isnt ready for a woman and a black man in the white house at the same time and we all know it, although Obama is paving the way to become the first African American President. It wont be so much Hilliary winning but Bill Clintons wife winning, i would bet we'll see and hear a lot from slick Willie when they come down the stretch. The economy flurished during Bills 8yrs, whether he had much to with it or not thats what will resonate with the voters.
I think this is an accurate representation of what will likely happen. The only thing I might disagree with some is the idea that Bill will run the show. I happen to think Hillary might have been running the show a bit during Bill's presidency.
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Old Oct 11, 2007, 1:34am   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptix82 View Post
Also, if you listen to him talk about the "inflation tax", this is a result of the FED printing the money. Many of these economists have some sort of financial interest in the inflation tax. The current system makes things run better on Wall Street, but that's not the economy, that's rich people.
Wow, if your central bank (the Federal Reserve) is allowed to print currency at will, that is ridiculously stupid. That basically means it can give itself unlimited funds (well, up to the total value of everything in the country).

The fact that it is not 100% government-controlled makes it even more hopeless. The people with a stake in it will naturally be tempted to exploit this possibility just like I would if I had a print in the basement and a government permission to print.

What happens if they print more than simply replacing damaged/destroyed currency is:

1) The value of money goes down (in the form of higher than otherwise inflation). If the amount of money in the economy increased by say 2%, the inflation rate would be 2% extra high.

Say you had $10 000 in the bank, then the Federal Reserve prints like mad and gives itself money equal to 2% of the total money in the country. That leads to 2% inflation, which means prices are 2% higher.

This is because money represents the value of the things in the country. And when you increase money, you don´t increase the number of things, you just set a higher price for it. The increase in price for an average good per year = inflation rate.

The $10 000 is thus worth $10000 / 1,02 = $9804, a decrease of (10000-9804) / 10000 = 0,0196 = 1,96%

This means that everyone who had money lost 1,96% of their money to the Federal Reserve.

But you don´t lose any value of things. If you had a house worth $1 million, the price of the house is now $1,02 million, and when you divide that by 1,02 you see the value remains the same.

So financing public stuff by printing more money than the public expects is very unfair to people who have most of their fortune in banks. On the other hand it is very nice for people who have loans, as their loans are magically disappearing.

And it is also nice for people who neither have big loans or bank accounts, but rather have their fortune in things as they (like the people with loans) didn´t have to pay taxes.

2) The value of the currency (dollar) decreases. The extra inflation means you need more dollars to buy an item than you used to. So for a foreigner to buy an American item at the same cost in terms of his own currency as in the past, he has to pay less for the dollars.

The increased amount of dollars in the economy leads to more supply of dollars for foreigners, so they do get to buy dollars for a lower than usual price.



So while people who have money in the bank are getting screwed. Your Federal Reserve is actually reducing your foreign debt as such loans are usually in the currency of the country loan-taker. It is basically stealing money from the countries it owes money to.

I find it strange that these countries don´t protest and respond by ignoring American copyrights and stuff to get their value back.

The negative effects of printing money as a form of tax are:

1) It affects a few hard instead of many a little. I am sure you can imagine that it hurts someone with a $100 000 fortune more to lose $50 000 per dollar than it hurts 5 people each with a $100 000 fortune to lose $10 000 per dollar. It is the principle of decreasing utility per additional dollar.

2) It creates higher than necessary inflation, which means businesses must adjust their prices more frequently, which costs money.
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Old Oct 11, 2007, 2:24am   #18
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LOL at returning to gold standard (I know that's not Ron Paul's idea per se, but I've heard it touted by many as a solution to credit problems). Granted, if your federal reserve is as messed at it sounds, that's not a good thing, but returning to pre-Keynesian economics isn't a good idea either.

Btw, how 'independent' is your federal bank? That Zeitgeist movie suggested it was as independent as any other bank, but I call bs on that.

I thought that your central bank was like the bank of Canada, not 'run' by the government (we don't have legislators setting interest rates b/c that would be ridiculous) but not independent by any means - the chairman is appointed by the federal gov't, right? And it doesn't 'own' the US currency per se, it is just a repository which loans money to the government and others, and of course the loan is at the prime rate of interest. This is the same thing that the central bank does for every individual bank that needs an overnight loan etc.

The way some people spin this (eg. the Zeitgeist folks), make it sound like the federal reserve is a totally independent bank that owns all US currency in circulation and can print it at will w/o approval of anyone appointed by the government (ie. the chair) and without reason. And yes, inflation is like a 'tax' on holding money (trust me, that's not a new idea by any means), but at the same time, you remove the ability to print money beyond maintaining circulation amount, and you remove the ability of governments to run deficit spending except at much higher interest rates, not to mention a slew of other negative consequences. I'm not an economist by any means, but the 'sinister' notion of a central bank is just ridiculous, as is the suggestion that returning to the gold standard would be a good idea. A credit economy, run properly and operated within by reasonable people is WAY better than this pseudo-mercantilist bull being touted as saviour.
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Old Oct 11, 2007, 3:15am   #19
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I had old co-worker that could do a dead-on impression of Ross Perot!!


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I happen to think Hillary might have been running the show a bit during Bill's presidency.
Thats not very novel, its the case in most houses, not just white ones......DAM that was hard to type/admit


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Old Oct 11, 2007, 3:40am   #20
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dunno bout hillary but we have a woman in charge here and things could definetely be better. you guys should go with that black dude imo



oh and to add something to your discussion:
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