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Old Mar 12, 2008, 7:31pm   #1
TWLLM
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Default Push or fold preflop in omaha

Full Tilt Poker Game #5606716146: Table Borden (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 15:08:42 ET - 2008/03/12
Seat 1: papaluca ($75.50)
Seat 2: Almtom ($92.05)
Seat 3: steelstones ($59.40)
Seat 4: truckingbaron ($101.85)
Seat 5: Mrreadchips ($117.25)
Seat 6: exhortations ($110.65)
steelstones posts the small blind of $0.50
truckingbaron posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mrreadchips [Js Jd Ts 9s]
Mrreadchips raises to $3.50
exhortations calls $3.50
papaluca folds
Almtom raises to $15.50
steelstones folds
truckingbaron folds
Mrreadchips has 15 seconds left to act
Mrreadchips calls $12
exhortations raises to $63.50
Almtom has 15 seconds left to act
Almtom folds
Almtom adds $23.45
Mrreadchips has 15 seconds left to act
Mrreadchips has requested TIME
Mrreadchips raises to $117.25, and is all in
exhortations calls $47.15, and is all in
Mrreadchips shows [Js Jd Ts 9s]
exhortations shows [7s Ah Ac 7d]
Uncalled bet of $6.60 returned to Mrreadchips
*** FLOP *** [Ad Ks 6s]
*** TURN *** [Ad Ks 6s] [Kc]
*** RIVER *** [Ad Ks 6s Kc] [2s]
Mrreadchips shows a flush, King high
exhortations shows a full house, Aces full of Kings
exhortations wins the pot ($235.30) with a full house, Aces full of Kings
Mrreadchips adds $93.40
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $238.30 | Rake $3
Board: [Ad Ks 6s Kc 2s]
Seat 1: papaluca didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Almtom (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: steelstones (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: truckingbaron (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Mrreadchips showed [Js Jd Ts 9s] and lost with a flush, King high
Seat 6: exhortations showed [7s Ah Ac 7d] and won ($235.30) with a full house, Aces full of Kings

I'm not bothering to hide results because I knew that he had AAxx, it's just a question of what his AAxx range is against me. Any decent omaha player knows by the 4-bet that they are against AAxx.

I don't consider that calling is an option because calling off half your stack then having to fold the flop is a bad idea. There's also no way to semibluff the hand since he's calling the flop push no matter what. But if someone has a good reason to just call here please let me know. Only one i can think of is for the times that i miss the flop completely and can get away from it, but I figure that calling off half your stack then folding the flop isn't going to save me much money versus pushing or folding.

Obviously I'm expecting most people to avoid the question by saying 'open fold' or 'fold to 3-bet', so consider that issue pre-empted. I just want to know how to respond to the 4-bet.




PS - obligatory TWLLM runs bad comment - this happened within 5 minutes of this: http://www.pokertips.org/forums/showthread.php?p=625204
Funny how I can be on the losing end of both ways when its AAxx vs. any four cards preflop. Repeatedly. Within the same session.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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Old Mar 13, 2008, 12:24pm   #2
joeyjoejoejr
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I'd fold to the 4 bet, I don't think you will have enough equity.

You have a pair in your hand which makes it harder to suck out on aces.

I might call all in if I have something like DS QJ109 or J1098.
Then put the other half in on almost every flop unless it was A55 or 772
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Old Mar 13, 2008, 5:46pm   #3
WaxHaX0rS
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This is just a math question, no? I thought you could do this kind of math but I'll do it anyway. Against the best case AAxx hand (AA72 rainbow I would assume is close to the best case??) This is almost exactly breakeven (microscopically -EV after the rake). You need to have at least .419 equity for this to be breakeven and you have .414 in this best case scenario. Worse case scenario you have about .291 in equity. So, ya, this is a fold according to the math, assuming I didn't screw it up.

edit: AA23 rainbow is worse apparently and you could be microscopically +EV again this holding.
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Old Mar 13, 2008, 7:00pm   #4
TWLLM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxHaX0rS View Post
This is just a math question, no? I thought you could do this kind of math but I'll do it anyway. Against the best case AAxx hand (AA72 rainbow I would assume is close to the best case??) This is almost exactly breakeven (microscopically -EV after the rake). You need to have at least .419 equity for this to be breakeven and you have .414 in this best case scenario. Worse case scenario you have about .291 in equity. So, ya, this is a fold according to the math, assuming I didn't screw it up.

edit: AA23 rainbow is worse apparently and you could be microscopically +EV again this holding.
Yeah, it's totally a math question. The key is that I didn't really have any way of figuring out the EV in the spot, but I figured it was close to 60/40 or so against his average AAxx pushing range. It's marginal either way, I was mostly interested in seeing what range we put him on, since it's clearly most likely that he has AAxx, and sometimes it'll be marginally +EV.

I'm not happy with either play really. This would have been better if I was double suited or had a 4 run instead of JJT9, but I also figured he was likely to have a weak AAxx since he flat called rather than 3-bet (usually if someone has aces double suited or aces and jt or aces and another good broadway draw, they will 3-bet; the call/4-bet push line is usually what people do when they have a much weaker AAxx, like AA23, or AA72, or AA67, and so on).

It's just a question of his range and the problem is that unlike hold'em, there's no easy way to figure that out or approximate it.

Oh well. It could be worse, I could have done this with 47Qt rainbow, like one of my opponent's in the other thread. Funny thing is they actually won with it, of course. At the very least this was only a small mistake/small +EV play.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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