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Old Mar 21, 2008, 8:31pm   #1
TWLLM
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Default How NOT to play AAxx in omaha post-flop oop

My opponent just misplayed AAxx about as bad as I've ever seen it done.

I was torn between pushing turn and taking my chances against his half of the deck (figuring he's paying off if I hit, given how huge a donkey he is).

Obviously I didn't hit, but I thought it might be informative to look at how bad his play was, because i was in shock that *anyone* would play aaxx like this on this board. It's so sad it's actually funny.

PokerStars Game #16144250292: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/03/21 - 15:43:49 (ET)
Table 'Eagle' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: m84u ($319.35 in chips)
Seat 2: OCVI2003 ($99.75 in chips)
Seat 4: amigo007 ($23.25 in chips)
Seat 5: Anvil01 ($35.90 in chips)
Seat 6: Cram ($76.60 in chips)
TheBarrel will be allowed to play after the button
amigo007: posts small blind $0.50
Anvil01: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to OCVI2003 [8h Qc As Jc]
Cram: folds
m84u: raises $2.50 to $3.50
OCVI2003: calls $3.50
amigo007: folds
Anvil01: folds
*** FLOP *** [6c 7h 9c]
m84u: checks
OCVI2003: bets $6
m84u: calls $6
*** TURN *** [6c 7h 9c] [Jd]
m84u: checks
OCVI2003: bets $16
m84u: raises $16 to $32
OCVI2003: calls $16
*** RIVER *** [6c 7h 9c Jd] [9h]
m84u: checks
OCVI2003: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
m84u: shows [Jh 2d Ad Ah] (two pair, Aces and Nines)
OCVI2003: mucks hand
m84u collected $82.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $84.50 | Rake $2
Board [6c 7h 9c Jd 9h]
Seat 1: m84u showed [Jh 2d Ad Ah] and won ($82.50) with two pair, Aces and Nines
Seat 2: OCVI2003 (button) mucked [8h Qc As Jc]
Seat 4: amigo007 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Anvil01 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Cram folded before Flop (didn't bet)


So, what was so bad about this hand? I mean, after all he won, so he must have played the hand correctly, right?


Preflop: standard play by him; my call is a little loose, but im on the button so I'm assured position, which makes the call more reasonable.

Flop: He checks. I pretty much put him on the overpair (aaxx or kkxx) and figure there's no point in blowing him out of the pot. If I'd been out of position, I'd want to get the hand over with. But with multiple draws, and a good chance (or so I thought) of semibluffing the turn, betting $6 is fine. Betting pot here is also fine, you reduce your chances of taking his stack on the later streets (and make a semibluff more dangerous), but you increase your chances of stealing on the turn.

Turn: This card looks good for my hand, assuming he has a naked aaxx, which helps my semibluff possibilities. So I bet $16, figuring he's unlikely to call with AAxx. I really wasn't expecting a check/minraise. In fact, that's the WORST possible play with aaxx. Not only does he give me the ability to push back on him if I have the hand (or even if i don't), he's also not putting me to a serious decision - I can easily call here with most draws and see the river. God only knows what he does on the river if its not a brick.

River: So I missed my many outs; the 9 is a problem card, because while against a nit it would be a good semibluff card, against this guy he's likely to figure his hand just got better because now he has two pair. Also, I've been repping the straight and or flush draws to this point, so it's not clear if the 9 really helps me much. Against a nit, this is a good semibluff spot, but against this guy, its a chance to get snapped off.

Still, the check/minraise with AAxx on the turn is a *terrible* play. I think this is a spot where you might consider folding aaxx on the flop, since he has no redraws whatsoever. Even if he calls the flop, he needs to fold the turn because it makes so many draws that I might have had. Calling the turn is bad. But the check/mini-raise is even more ridiculous. This is just getting yourself into the worst of both worlds. He didn't protect his hand, nor did he minimize his losses against a made hand (which folding would have done).

I posted this because people on here who have no clue how to play omaha are always saying 'omg way to overplay aaxx' when I either (a) lose with it preflop all-in, or (b) lose with it when I flop a multiway hand (ie. overpair +nfd+broadway draw). I just think this is a good example of the difference between getting unlucky and having it look like an overplay, and actual overplay of aaxx.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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Old Mar 21, 2008, 11:25pm   #2
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Quote:
Turn: This card looks good for my hand, assuming he has a naked aaxx, which helps my semibluff possibilities. So I bet $16, figuring he's unlikely to call with AAxx. I really wasn't expecting a check/minraise. In fact, that's the WORST possible play with aaxx. Not only does he give me the ability to push back on him if I have the hand (or even if i don't), he's also not putting me to a serious decision - I can easily call here with most draws and see the river. God only knows what he does on the river if its not a brick.
I think that was just a tester raise, if you had a straight you would re-raised right?
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Old Mar 21, 2008, 11:36pm   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarron View Post
I think that was just a tester raise, if you had a straight you would re-raised right?
I'll be kind because you're a new poster, but:

(1) on the turn, out of position, on a scary board, is NOT the time for a tester raise.

(2) Even if it is a tester raise, it fails to test anything because I can call behind with a lot of hands (sets, 2 prs) that beat him, or I can slowplay him to the river with the straight then pop him (I would have if I'd had the straight), or I can draw cheaply and then punish him on the river).

(3) Risk/reward of this play is REALLY bad for his naked aaxx.

There are more reasons this is a bad play, but they're already in my post so I suggest you go read them there.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?

Last edited by TWLLM; Mar 21, 2008 at 11:40pm.
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Old Mar 22, 2008, 1:39am   #4
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I wasn't saying if it was good or bad, just saying what his logic may be.

Thats the only purpose I can see with that raise.
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Old Mar 22, 2008, 1:40am   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarron View Post
I wasn't saying if it was good or bad, just saying what his logic may be.

Thats the only purpose I can see with that raise.
I guess, but I would be hesitant to ascribe any 'logic' to this player's actions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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Old Mar 22, 2008, 10:35pm   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWLLM View Post
I guess, but I would be hesitant to ascribe any 'logic' to this player's actions.
sorry had to post a lol.
so true.
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Old Mar 29, 2008, 4:12am   #7
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Another example of how not to play aaxx post-flop:

PokerStars Game #16326833499: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/03/29 - 00:05:10 (ET)
Table 'Sahlia IV' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: UnK Frank ($98.85 in chips)
Seat 2: chipsin13 ($93 in chips)
Seat 3: OCVI2003 ($100 in chips)
Seat 4: mikevee12 ($231.55 in chips)
Seat 5: lhartman ($113.35 in chips)
Seat 6: moncaphone ($74.20 in chips)
lhartman: posts small blind $0.50
moncaphone: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to OCVI2003 [Kd 9s Kh 7c]
UnK Frank: calls $1
chipsin13: calls $1
OCVI2003: calls $1
mikevee12: calls $1
lhartman: folds
moncaphone: raises $5.50 to $6.50
UnK Frank: calls $5.50
chipsin13: calls $5.50
OCVI2003: calls $5.50
mikevee12: calls $5.50
*** FLOP *** [Kc 2d 4h]
moncaphone: bets $31.35
UnK Frank: folds
chipsin13: folds
OCVI2003: raises $62.15 to $93.50 and is all-in
mikevee12: folds
moncaphone: calls $36.35 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Kc 2d 4h] [7s]
*** RIVER *** [Kc 2d 4h 7s] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
moncaphone: shows [As 8h Ah 5c] (a straight, Ace to Five)
OCVI2003: shows [Kd 9s Kh 7c] (three of a kind, Kings)
moncaphone collected $165.40 from pot
OCVI2003 said, "good call"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $168.40 | Rake $3
Board [Kc 2d 4h 7s 3s]
Seat 1: UnK Frank folded on the Flop
Seat 2: chipsin13 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: OCVI2003 showed [Kd 9s Kh 7c] and lost with three of a kind, Kings
Seat 4: mikevee12 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: lhartman (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: moncaphone (big blind) showed [As 8h Ah 5c] and won ($165.40) with a straight, Ace to Five

Just because you raised $4 something preflop doesn't mean you should put $60 in on a 5 way flop with an overpair and gutter.

Clearly my fault for calling preflop but I'm a dreamer.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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Old Mar 30, 2008, 9:37pm   #8
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Continuing in our series, here's another example. While limping aces in early position is often a wise move, it is not justification for getting married to your hand later on. Just because you 'didn't raise preflop' doesn't mean everyone and their dog is automatically bluffing into you in a multiway limped pot.

Just because you have aces and know that, doesn't mean I know you have aces and am all of a sudden bluffing you in the least bluffable spot in bluffdom! So when facing a pot size bet, twice, fold your raggedy back door nut flush draw - its a paired board, that's a very bad calldown. Even a nut flush draw on the flop is a bad call, since I may have T6/66 and have you drawing dead to 2 outs, or I may have Tx and fill up on the card you make your 'draw' with. This is, after all, omaha.



PokerStars Game #16369060263: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/03/30 - 17:22:22 (ET)
Table 'Seillier III' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: luckbox777 ($153.80 in chips)
Seat 2: joebumps ($49.40 in chips)
Seat 3: ILKKA ($135.35 in chips)
Seat 4: brook20 ($34 in chips)
Seat 5: coe247 ($74 in chips)
Seat 7: figgel ($96.20 in chips)
Seat 8: homeboy27 ($168.40 in chips)
Seat 9: OCVI2003 ($145.25 in chips)
homeboy27: posts small blind $0.50
OCVI2003: posts big blind $1
ThroXerioN: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to OCVI2003 [Tc Jd 4c Jh]
luckbox777: folds
joebumps: folds
ILKKA: calls $1
brook20: folds
coe247: calls $1
figgel: folds
homeboy27: calls $0.50
OCVI2003: checks
*** FLOP *** [6h Th Ts]
homeboy27: checks
OCVI2003: bets $3.80
ILKKA: calls $3.80
coe247: folds
homeboy27: folds
*** TURN *** [6h Th Ts] [2s]
OCVI2003: bets $11.05
ILKKA: calls $11.05
*** RIVER *** [6h Th Ts 2s] [Ks]
OCVI2003: bets $15
ILKKA: calls $15
*** SHOW DOWN ***
OCVI2003: shows [Tc Jd 4c Jh] (three of a kind, Tens)
ILKKA: shows [5s Qh As Ah] (a flush, Ace high)
ILKKA collected $60.70 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $63.70 | Rake $3
Board [6h Th Ts 2s Ks]
Seat 1: luckbox777 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: joebumps folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: ILKKA showed [5s Qh As Ah] and won ($60.70) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 4: brook20 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: coe247 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: figgel (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: homeboy27 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: OCVI2003 (big blind) showed [Tc Jd 4c Jh] and lost with three of a kind, Tens
__________________
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
TWLLM est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
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