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Old May 07, 2008, 3:09pm   #11
SwoopAE
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You do realise most of your posted hands make you look like a luckbox fish, right?

I know you're a capable player (sometimes) but you cannot put money into the pot voluntarily 60% of the time in a MTT and expect to be a winning player, nomatter how much of a genius you think you are.

Yes, you're a good player postflop. Potentially even better than me playing with 20-50BB (i'm a better pushbot and deepstack player imo) and your postflop game is solid all around.

I know you're good, i've played with you as much as anyone.

...but i've said it before and i'll say it again, you're not a winning player when you're contesting 60% of pots in a full-ring game. You may be winning 35% of the hands but it just doesn't work in the long run at stakes above 5c/10c or $1 MTT rebuys. Just don't do it. You would be SO much better if you played your current postflop game and simply played AK AQ PPs out of position plus Ax suited, suited connectors and broadway cards from button and cutoff. Raising J4 suited or 32 suited or Q7o UTG or in MP in a nine handed tournament on a regular basis is simply not profitable. Limping with them even less so.

That QQ turn bet was awful, it's a situation where you have to either commit your stack for fold equity over Kx or just c/f, your bet was too low, reeked of weakness, you have no line on the river if he calls, plus he has Kx+ most of the time and he has just the right stack size to shove over you w/ fold equity.

46 hand was pretty standard, if a little loose preflop.

AJ hand was a good call

Be a hero 25-30% of the time instead of 60% of the time perhaps?

I can't stress this enough.
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Old May 07, 2008, 6:09pm   #12
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Ah I see the life talking to, followed this. Obviously the poker warmed you up. LOL

Girls lol.
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Old May 07, 2008, 6:53pm   #13
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Its not surprising that you and swoop are best friends. Two apples from the same tree.
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Old May 07, 2008, 8:50pm   #14
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Originally Posted by KrappyKonnect View Post
Its not surprising that you and swoop are best friends. Two apples from the same tree.
Says the spartan himself (lol - this is some serious nit double-meaning humour!)





@ Glockers, luck also helps in avoidable spots, of which this was one.
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Old May 08, 2008, 3:34am   #15
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I still argue the first hand is unavoidable unless I am a useless tight nit with no hope of being a plus EV player. I am getting too good odds to see the flop in a multiway pot.

Once I see the flop I I have two pair and it is highly unlikely anyone had a set. The preflop action combined with what the dude who raised did on the flop really made me discount Kings. So it is a low set maybe, but I have two pair with those cards. So it makes it very unlikely anyone has those sets. I discount sets and even if they have it, then I am just unlucky.

King 6 I totally don't expect, nor should I (unless you can explain how I put King 6 in the dude's range there).

I therefore am committed to that hand.
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Old May 08, 2008, 4:06am   #16
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Originally Posted by glockers View Post
I still argue the first hand is unavoidable unless I am a useless tight nit with no hope of being a plus EV player. (LOL - too easy - even SwoopAE, lagtard/luckbox extrodinaire, thinks a lot of these hands are bad).

I am getting too good odds to see the flop in a multiway pot. (There is a theory that some hands are so bad that you do not want to see the flop with them, for even a small raise, when there are significant chips behind - 64o is often in that range of hands. Here I think it clearly was. 64s might be a marginal call, but this looks like a fold to me, and I'm not alone on this one.)

Once I see the flop I I have two pair and it is highly unlikely anyone had a set. (Well, yes, it's as unlikely as it is any time half the table sees the flop, after you take into account that you flopped two pair. There is no information here to tell you it is unlikely that someone has a set - if anything, these calls look like they could be small pps (and yes, someone *can* hit 44/66 here, even though you have 64) and the original raiser could well have kings. Granted, it is never all that likely in hold'em that someone has flopped two pair or a set, esp. when you flop two pair, but beyond the regular 'deck' probability, what information leads you to think it's unlikely someone has a set? If this were a heads up pot, or maybe 3-way, it would be *highly* unlikely you're beat imo, but in a 5 way pot, the odds go up significantly, relatively speaking.)


The preflop action combined with what the dude who raised did on the flop really made me discount Kings. (Really? You've never seen someone minraise with top set on a relatively dry board? It's clear on reflection that this player minraises as a sandbag, so I think it's completely possible that they'd have minraised KK here as well as AA).


So it is a low set maybe, but I have two pair with those cards. So it makes it very unlikely anyone has those sets. I discount sets and even if they have it, then I am just unlucky. (You discount 90% of the hands that beat you, and put it in and lose - hell yes that's unlucky! There were so few hands LEFT IN THEIR RANGE that beat you. The point is that discounting the range of hands the way you do here is very foolhardy. If you're going to try doing something like that, you have to consider what the hands are that they will pay you off with that you beat - what did you think you were beating here? Did you think the second raiser had exactly 75 or Kx, and just didn't want to believe the bet/raised flop?! The shover's range is probably crushing you, unless you expect to see 75 and Kx a lot, and kx at the very least will *probably* not shove over the top of a re-raise from the preflop aggressor. So while you're ahead of the preflop raisers range, the re-raiser is usually beating you, and the few times he's not, you're 35/65 give or take, at best, whereas you're like 10% or less if he's got you beat.)

King 6 I totally don't expect, nor should I (unless you can explain how I put King 6 in the dude's range there). (It's a 5 way flop in a lowstakes donkament - he probably shows up with K6 a decent amount of time. You can't really 'put' him on it per se, but then again, how can you 'put' him on anything - it's a 5 way flop and he called behind. The only time you can put him on a hand is when he shoves, because he will only shove with certain hands. You see to take a preflop range as the be all and end all - REEVALUATE on the flop.)

I therefore am committed to that hand. (I'd rethink it before you call it 'commitment')
My comments in red. I focused mostly on the play after you bet out the flop. To some extent, you have committed yourself a bit on the flop, but I really don't know if it's a stack commitment. If you fold, you leave yourself with around 3500 in chips, at 20/40. That's ample chips imo. I still think the call preflop is the biggest mistake, but that's based on the 'snowball' effect of the bad call - you will often get into marginal spots and get crushed by them because you played a very weak hand preflop. I'm also not a big fan of the stackoff, but that was clear from what I said above.

EDIT - I didn't think there was a flush draw on the flop, but even if you work in that either the preflop raiser or the shover might have a flush draw sometimes, it still seems a fold to me. Shoving a flush draw (save maybe the NFD) is far from automatic for the shover when he's facing that much action.
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Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?

Last edited by TWLLM; May 08, 2008 at 4:08am.
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Old May 08, 2008, 7:49am   #17
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I put the aces guy on ace king or something similar (yeah a big pair). Not top set even with the shithouse bet. Again I discounted pocket fours and sixes mainly because of what my hand contained. Secondly the second dude re raised so much it seemed ridiculous for a set. A set wants action. I really thought it was a large pair vs ace king or maybe even ace king vs king queen.

I therefore thought I was in an excellent spot. I will never expect to see king 6 there. If you think 4/6 offsuit is a marginal pre flop call then king 6 is way more marginal. It is a hand I would fold for sure.

Bottom line it is a sit and go and you are forced to make moves. When I see a flop with two pair I commit there unless I certainly can put someone on a set.

Again it is different philsophies on how to play and I will bow to your financial record online.
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Old May 08, 2008, 5:28pm   #18
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damn... do you coatch ?
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