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Old Jun 09, 2008, 4:17pm   #1
Hoss Man
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Default Extracting Value with boss hands on scary boards in PLO

Example

This happened the other night

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $4 BB (4 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($353)
Button ($139)
Hero ($427.20)
BB ($395.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, Q, 3, Q.
UTG raises to $14, Button calls $14, Hero calls $12, BB calls $10.

Short-handed and alot of preflop pot raising with callers. Had to see the flop in the SB with QQT3

Flop: ($56) 7, Q, 7 (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets $28, Button folds, Hero calls $28, BB folds.

I put him on AAxx. (In reality he had 789T single suited.) Didn't want to scare him off with a c/r.

Turn: ($112) J (2 players)
Hero bets $48, UTG calls $48.

The question: I wanted him to call and was going for a weak bluff appearance. I think I could have bet more but wasn't sure how much would scare him out. Would a 50-66% bet scare folks out here?

River: ($208 ) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $140, UTG calls $140.

The Question: Once Again I wanted him to call. Should this have been a 66-80% pot bet? Remember I put him on AAxx when in reality he had 789T.


Final Pot: $488

Results in white below:


Outcome: Hero wins $488.
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Old Jun 09, 2008, 8:20pm   #2
TWLLM
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Overall your play is fine here, except you need to fold this 100% preflop. This is pretty much a garbage hand - you found one of the only flops you can get serious (winning) action on.

Also, remember that not every open raise is aaxx - your putting him on aaxx there is kinda silly - a draw hand or trips is probably not unlikely either. Most decent PLO players prefer to raise with 789t utg than with aaxx.

The only thing which changes is that you should bet more on the turn with your 'bluff' because no one except a drunken retard is calling you down with aaxx @ 2/4 in that spot. You can't sell a bluff to aaxx - they will have to fold even if they think you're bluffing a lot. What you want is action from underfulls and naked trips, which will be reasonably likely to bluffcatch. So bet a little more, and raise your river bet accordingly (keeping the proportions about the same).


BTW Hoss, how much PLO have you played? Your play/results seems good, but your reasoning seems lacking (I'm usually the other way around, myself - I know what I'm talking about but my play/results suck ). As soon as you said "I put him on aaxx" here I shuddered to think what you actually know or understand about plo, even though it seems you make the right plays anyway.

Putting a person on one hand based on that little information is insane. If he had 3-bet preflop and was a tight player, then you can put him on aaxx pretty squarely. If he was a not so tight player, you'd need a 4-bet preflop to figure him for aaxx. And if he's a maniac, you can probably never figure him for aaxx as opposed to a range of pretty looking hands. So I'm a little concerned it will cost you if you keep trying to put your opponents on aaxx because they raised in early position. I know one of the best plays against unsophisticated opponents who figure any open-raise is aaxx, is to raise with wrap and run down type hands, and then play them like aaxx. It allows me to steal big pots on ragged axx boards, and it allows me to trick people into pushing weak holdings on draw boards (now, if i could ever hit a wrap, I'd be golden ).

As for the hand, you didn't c/r the flop with your queens over full because you didn't want to scare aaxx away. The key is that aaxx is scared the second you call - what you REALLY don't want to scare away is what he had (trips), so c/r'ing is probably wrong in this spot. So your play was right and your reasoning was wrong.

I don't mind going for a small c/r on the turn, knowing that a lot of players can't help but call down underfulls. But just the same, you got pretty good value here playing it tricky. Either way is fine, since sometimes he'll not have improved his trips (or whatever else he has) and when he gets c/r'ed on the turn, he'll give up slightly more often than he will when you bet out your 'bluff'.
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Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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Old Jun 10, 2008, 4:22pm   #3
Hoss Man
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I do appreciate the feedback and candor TWLLM.

On the hand I posted... to be honest, I was about to fold in the SB, but when the dealer flat called the $14. I just felt it was worth a $12 call with $34 already in the pot and the BB probably flat calling after me.

Post flop I thought he had AAxx because the $28 bet seem to be a push out attempt.

I think the tables turned and he made the bigger mistakes on the turn and river. I bet big when the J hit the turn. I could be bluffing OR I could have had AX777, JJJ77, 777JJ, QQQ77 or 777QQ. Either way he was drawing to a weaker underfull in that case. I continued to put him on AAxx because I thought, who would call my turn bet unless they were desperately drawing to a stronger full house.

I do see your point about the strength in a preflop raise with 789T.

With regards to your other question...

I've been playing PLO for about a year (the bane of my bankroll to be honest), but not until about the last 3 months have I focused on it over Holdem; and have focused on getting better. I really do think it is a growing game and very loose, passive at the lower levels (.10/.25 and .25/.50). Much more preflop aggression at .5/1 and above.

I recently bought PLO Poker by Jeff Hwang. Good read, I like his situation examples. He does preach about playing with all four card vs 3 with a dangler. He also stresses avoiding single gaps at the top of your rundown vs the bottom. And of course not overvaluing small sets, bottom end of straights, underfulls etc.
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Old Jun 10, 2008, 5:08pm   #4
Gerrit2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWLLM View Post
Overall your play is fine here, except you need to fold this 100% preflop. This is pretty much a garbage hand - you found one of the only flops you can get serious (winning) action on.
AGREE AGREE AGREE

To play this hand oop profitable You have to be god or Sammy Farha I guess. Do Yourself a favor and fold this in a second. The reverse implied odds even make this a fold if You could see the flop for free (OK thats too much but You get the point, right?)...

Quote:
Also, remember that not every open raise is aaxx - your putting him on aaxx there is kinda silly - a draw hand or trips is probably not unlikely either. Most decent PLO players prefer to raise with 789t utg than with aaxx.
You put him on AAxx because he bet 1/2 Pot the flop after betting pre? This is almost allways a 7xxx OR AAxx hand I guess. Could be Quads 77, Q7 or a lone 7 trying to make a full. Funny thing is You played the hand good against a 7 (Except betsizing) even when thinking You are up against AA (I would play the hand the same against 7xxx but different against AAxx) all the time...

Quote:
The only thing which changes is that you should bet more on the turn with your 'bluff' because no one except a drunken retard is calling you down with aaxx @ 2/4 in that spot. You can't sell a bluff to aaxx - they will have to fold even if they think you're bluffing a lot. What you want is action from underfulls and naked trips, which will be reasonably likely to bluffcatch. So bet a little more, and raise your river bet accordingly (keeping the proportions about the same).
Yeah bet more on Turn and River and get paid off by underfulls or trips (at least trips A kicker will call You on the turn most of the time). I guess something like 2/3 of the Pot could be right. On the river maybe I would jam Potsize.

You COULD play a c/r on the turn if You believe You are up against a underfull. This way You could get all the money in the pot. But You will loose value against trips so I would like the bet / bet / bet line more.

Also a decent player could get away from the smallest full if You c/r the turn...
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