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Old Apr 12, 2009, 5:49am   #11
kmay06
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No. The point is, if you called, you can't 'fold' your hand, you can only muck it. And it's not mucked until the cards enter the muck (hence, the name). The rule is there to protect against honest mistakes, angle shooting by opponents, and to preserve the natural outcome if the hand had been turned over. It's kind of a fairness rule, and sometimes its exercise is tied to the general discretion of the floor people to apply rules in a manner consistent with fairness and the best interests of the game. It's unnecessary with online poker because you can't muck a winner online - the computer will always 'turn it over' for you.

I'm sure though, now that I've explained that, someone will tell me that's only the rule in Canada because America's all about freedom or some such rhetoric.



Also, I agree with Boilermaker (ldo) that it's good policy not to ask to see hands, both because you don't want someone to by accident reveal a winner, and because it's rather rude except when done very sparingly.
Lol, nh. Even in America though if a hand is tabled and called incorrectly, or the opponent throws it as if to muck and it gets flipped, if both players are at showdown the winning hand takes it. You can opt to not show and push your hand into the muck, but it's technically live until the pot is shipped or it's unretrievable/identifiable. It can be in the muck also, as long as you can be like "hey, it's those two cards there, ace of diamonds and 5 of diamonds, I didn't see I had the flush also." and often the floor will rule in their favor.

Thats usually what it is anyway.
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Old Apr 12, 2009, 7:41am   #12
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The point is, if you called, you can't 'fold' your hand, you can only muck it.
Yeah, but he said in all of the stories that the player "folded" on the river, which would exclude a call imo. I realize in the stories he witnessed, he probably meant to say "muck" despite the fact he said "folded" in every case. In his case though, it seems clear that he meant that the guy "folded", in which case he shouldn't worry about being screwed unless "you're allowed to fold on the river, show your hand, and then win the pot anyway if you had the best hand". I was really just being facetious like I am 99% of the time, but you always think I'm serious. I'm not as dumb as you think.

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Old Apr 12, 2009, 3:46pm   #13
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Yeah, but he said in all of the stories that the player "folded" on the river, which would exclude a call imo. I realize in the stories he witnessed, he probably meant to say "muck" despite the fact he said "folded" in every case. In his case though, it seems clear that he meant that the guy "folded", in which case he shouldn't worry about being screwed unless "you're allowed to fold on the river, show your hand, and then win the pot anyway if you had the best hand".
Yeah ok. I meant muck for the other two hands. In the hand I was in, he hadn't called my 1 BB so you're right it wouldn't matter if the cards were flipped. Although with his cards out of the muck I'm not sure what would happen if I asked to see them and he then decided to call. Never seen that but they may be live.

@kmay, everywhere I've played the cards are absolutely dead once they have touched the muck even if they can be identified. I've only seen a handful of exceptions where players were clearly angle shooting by mis-calling their hands.

The villain in the OP was at my table again last night. (lol paychecks) I saw him twice go past 5 bets on the turn with nothing but a flush draw. So I think the spade or spade+higher straight draw is what he had.
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Old Apr 12, 2009, 3:57pm   #14
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Yeah ok. I meant muck for the other two hands. In the hand I was in, he hadn't called my 1 BB so you're right it wouldn't matter if the cards were flipped. Although with his cards out of the muck I'm not sure what would happen if I asked to see them and he then decided to call. Never seen that but they may be live.

@kmay, everywhere I've played the cards are absolutely dead once they have touched the muck even if they can be identified. I've only seen a handful of exceptions where players were clearly angle shooting by mis-calling their hands.
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2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to the player.
That's from robert's rules of poker, and is what most casino's I've been at use. If we were heads up and I flip over my hand and say flush, but the board is a flush and I'm playing the board or I don't really have a flush, and you muck, most places will let you grab your cards out if they are identifiable. It's the whole thing about the "magic muck", in that there is nothing special about the muck making your hand dead.

Best interest of the game is clearly subjective, but the places I've played at usually use it to mean if a player incorrectly mucks his hand, usually due to a situation like above, they almost always let him grab it back if he can identify it.
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Old Apr 14, 2009, 2:37pm   #15
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Villain was probably a clown here with some garbage.

That said in live poker don't slow down there. He could easily think a set is the nuts there.

Yes, I did play some live LHE at the casino when I was a n00b

I once managed to get about 25 bets in on the river HU with TT on a T98QT board at 5/T (he eventually called, we were about 50 bets deep). Live players will happily raise away with a full house there thinking it's the nuts.

Likewise on your board, a set is the nuts to some villains. Don't slow down unless you have a read that villain is competent.

What's this? I made a serious post in LHE?
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 1:03am   #16
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Villain was probably a clown here with some garbage.

That said in live poker don't slow down there. He could easily think a set is the nuts there.

Yes, I did play some live LHE at the casino when I was a n00b

I once managed to get about 25 bets in on the river HU with TT on a T98QT board at 5/T (he eventually called, we were about 50 bets deep). Live players will happily raise away with a full house there thinking it's the nuts.

Likewise on your board, a set is the nuts to some villains. Don't slow down unless you have a read that villain is competent.

What's this? I made a serious post in LHE?
Lol there shouldn't even be a limit strategy section, we all know there is no strategy in limit hold em.
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 3:27am   #17
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I once managed to get about 25 bets in on the river HU with TT on a T98QT board at 5/T (he eventually called, we were about 50 bets deep). Live players will happily raise away with a full house there thinking it's the nuts.
My favourite part of this post is how you managed to work in a 1-outer you hit as 'man my opponents suck'. (I'm assuming he had QQ - otherwise your story telling skills are terrible). Obviously he's a donk for going 25 bets, but it's still funny how extreme luck on your part is just 'background' to a story about how bad your opponent is.


I was almost tempted to effect a 'demotivational' idea I had for you, but it will wait. It will wait...
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Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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Old Apr 17, 2009, 1:44am   #18
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It was a 4 way pot until the river capped on flop and turn so i'm probably fine to go to the river here anyway since i'm ahead a lot on the flop vs live spewtards then getting full house mining odds on the turn 4way. My storytelling skills suck, but what, do you expect me to bust out my 'A' game for the LHE section?

Also, villain mucked and I never saw his hand; it could have just been a jack for all I know, I just assumed it was a full house due to the river action.

Also this is circa 2005 when I was awful at the pokers and didn't even play online for real money.

Please to be making of the demotivationals now?
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 4:12am   #19
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Default Strange hand at 5/10

Long time no post, good to be back guys. My opinion on this hand is to fold. With 2 people in for that much money, they have to have a good hand, and are either willing to gamble with the draw on the board, or are not afraid of the draw. What you dont want to see is the Kh or the Th gone, and be drawing to a split. One of the worst situations in all of poker is to be drawing dead or drawing to a split. You also have to figure that if someone has a set, that they have the boat redraw, which would leave you drawing dead to a straight flush if they hit. However, they could both have sets, which would make your draw a lot more live, and the chances of them hitting the redraw would be lower. If I had to put someone on a hand, I would put the initial preflop raiser on the setJacks?, and the other player on the K T.
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Old Jul 21, 2009, 8:47am   #20
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Long time no post, good to be back guys. My opinion on this hand is to fold. With 2 people in for that much money, they have to have a good hand, and are either willing to gamble with the draw on the board, or are not afraid of the draw. What you dont want to see is the Kh or the Th gone, and be drawing to a split. One of the worst situations in all of poker is to be drawing dead or drawing to a split. You also have to figure that if someone has a set, that they have the boat redraw, which would leave you drawing dead to a straight flush if they hit. However, they could both have sets, which would make your draw a lot more live, and the chances of them hitting the redraw would be lower. If I had to put someone on a hand, I would put the initial preflop raiser on the setJacks?, and the other player on the K T.


first post that not only made my eyes bleed from reading it, it made my ears bleed after reading it out loud to myself in order to clarify what I just read
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ALOT OF THE PEOPLE ON THE internet plays like pussys they got no gamble in them. They also aint very aggressive. The only time there aggressive is preflop. Post flop they play like bitches calling bets never raising unless the got the nuts. And 99.9% of the time that A PLAYER raiseS preflop they cbet the flop. AND THE CALLER ALWAYS FOLD TO THE CBET THINKING EVERY PREFLOP RAISER HAS A BIG POCKET PAIR. Basically they play terrible post flop.
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