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Old Sep 08, 2009, 10:43pm   #1
Maddox_23
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Default raise river?

Party Poker Limit Hold'em, $20.00 BB (6 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K
Hero raises, 3 folds, SB calls, 1 fold

Flop: (5 SB) 7, K, 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls

Turn: (3.5 BB) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls

River: (5.5 BB) 8 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls

Total pot: $150 (7.5 BB) | Rake: $3

would you guys raise this river

EDIT: no reads on villain (multitabling to much!)
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Old Sep 11, 2009, 10:50pm   #2
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I hate limit hold'em

My first instinct is to raise because he should rarely have a five here. I have no idea what to do if you get 3bet. That said, LHE is my worst game in the HORSE rotation so take my advice with a grain of salt.
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Old Sep 11, 2009, 11:45pm   #3
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for sure
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Old Sep 13, 2009, 5:33pm   #4
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Yup

He's got a ton more 2 pair/lower set combos in his range from donking here rather than 5's, (A hand like 89 also makes sense although he's played it like a puss if he has it but given he cc'd from the SB I'm not going to rule out other bad tendencies)

If he 3-bets the river it's close but I think just calling is fine. His hand range becomes a lot narrower then although I'd still be tempted to stick a cap on him as A5s, 65s and 55 are about the only thing you lose to and he can't 5-bet you but given his overall relative hand strength when he 3-bets calling seems best esp since he seems passive whatever he's got.
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Old Sep 14, 2009, 8:22pm   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomer2k6 View Post
Yup

He's got a ton more 2 pair/lower set combos in his range from donking here rather than 5's, (A hand like 89 also makes sense although he's played it like a puss if he has it but given he cc'd from the SB I'm not going to rule out other bad tendencies)

If he 3-bets the river it's close but I think just calling is fine. His hand range becomes a lot narrower then although I'd still be tempted to stick a cap on him as A5s, 65s and 55 are about the only thing you lose to and he can't 5-bet you but given his overall relative hand strength when he 3-bets calling seems best esp since he seems passive whatever he's got.
Wow, really? I think its closer to folding to a river 3bet than it is to capping. My default here is to call the river donk until I have a read that the opponent donks worse hands on river scare cards and is showdown bound enough to pay off the raise.
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Old Sep 15, 2009, 6:44am   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madscout View Post
Wow, really? I think its closer to folding to a river 3bet than it is to capping.
If you're so afraid of the straight then why would you ever raise to let him 3bet in the first place? I don't see any value in getting an extra bet in when you're ahead and losing an extra two without a showdown when you think you are behind.
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Old Sep 15, 2009, 12:11pm   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyo3030 View Post
If you're so afraid of the straight then why would you ever raise to let him 3bet in the first place?
I agree!

Quote:
Originally Posted by madscout
My default here is to call the river donk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyo3030 View Post
I don't see any value in getting an extra bet in when you're ahead and losing an extra two without a showdown when you think you are behind.
Technically we are only losing one extra bet, since we are already planning to at least call the river. Against any reasonable competition, if you aren't good enough to fold to a river 3-bet then you shouldn't be raising, imo.

If you think villain will bet-call all rivered two pair / set combos and bet-3bet all straight combos, then raise / fold to 3-bet is the best line.

86, 76, 88 = 27 combos
As5s, 75s, 65s, 85s, 54s, 55 = 19 combos

Only if villain is a certified maniac or seems to be tilting badly would I advocate a raise / call on the river.
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Old Sep 16, 2009, 4:11pm   #8
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limit holdem strategy is much different from no limit. in NL i would raise because the only reasonable hand that beats you is 55. which would probably fold after the flop.
but in limit games, people chase 2 card draws sometimes because the pot odds and implied odds might be in their favor. so i think calling is correct here. well done!
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Old Sep 19, 2009, 9:34am   #9
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The problem is, if we raise we have to call a 3-bet but we are nearly always beat.


On the other hand, standard Villain will not call a raise unless he has straight or is stupid.



Therefore, i would just call and take a note.
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Old Oct 01, 2009, 11:28am   #10
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In the absence of information about the player, I would usually raise and call.

Raising and folding is pretty ugly against an unknown opponent. You're being laid 10:1 to call his threebet, you can beat more than 9% of his 3betting hands. Plus you will potentially get good information on the player that will be worth many bets later. The information you'd get here is worth significantly more than the information you'd get by flat calling his opening bet.

Raising is definitely correct, even if he always threebets when he beats you and you always call, and he always flat calls your raise when you have him beat and he isn't bluffing, you're going to run into hands you beat more than twice as often as hands that beat you; you win one extra bet more than 2/3 of the time and lose 2 extra bets less than 1/3 of the time.

I think his river bet is a two pair valuebet most of the time. Sometimes it's T9s or a 5 but not very often. Occasionally it's a busted flush draw. I doubt he has a smaller set, unless it's a set of 8s he'd checkraise the turn unless he has brain damage.

Consider also what he puts you on; you've raised under the gun which limits your range substantially. On this board you have AK or KQ way more often than you have KK, two pair feels good about his hand.

Kc
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