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Old Oct 20, 2009, 6:40am   #31
killcrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shendo View Post
We had a meaningful disagreement on the strength of this guys raise based on his position right off the bat, which is likely the source of our differing opinions on how to respond to it. That was immediately glossed over in favor of nonsense semantics of course. As this is the Internets, and resistance is futile.
Position is not about how many seats there are between you and the button, or the names we ascribe to the various seats. You are not in middle position utg in a 6 handed game because you are 3 seats off the button any more than you are a packet of dog biscuits because your feet hurt.

From the other angle, just because we call him UTG it does not follow that we regard him the same as UTG at a 9 handed table. The nature of UTG is derived from the game, it is not enforced on the game.

Position is about where you are in the action, who acts before you and who acts after you. UTG still has to speak first, and is going to find himself either out of position or playing vs the blinds on the flop regardless of whether the table is 6 or 9 handed.

Obviously, UTG can be a little more liberal at a 6 handed table than his counterpart at a 9 handed table, but he is still UTG. That so few players appreciate how tight they need to be in that seat is free money.

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Old Oct 20, 2009, 2:33pm   #32
shendo
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CO+2 opening the raising is way different than CO+2 raising utg? Lets keep talking about this. Its super interesting. I'll keep saying how the strength of an open raise is relative to your distance from the button, and you keep saying its based on how far you are from UTG adjusted by the number of players in the game.***










***spoiler, they are almost the exact same thing!!!!
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 3:26pm   #33
shendo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
Longer implied odds are better than shorter implied odds. One of the nice things about getting to the flop for a single raise is that you don't necessarilly have to stack your opponent. You just have to get paid enough to make your initial investment profitable.
You have to get paid more than you would have if you 3bet should be the standard, not being profitable. I believe you made that point earlier. And the nice thing about the 3bet, is that you win 5bb and 12bb pots without making the hand. You had badmouthed winning 5bb pots earlier. 5bb/hand = 500b/100. If you play 44 100 times, you will get 12ish sets. So you would have to avg. 40bb per set to get to 5bb. There are not a lot of hands outside of KK and AA that are going to be avg. 500bb/100. So averaging a 5bb pot would be a hell of a number.

Quote:
Perhaps your experience differs from mine, but I find it harder to get paid off with sets in threebet pots. People are much more careful there, you get paid off much less often.
Sort of. Getting someone to put 40bb into a 25bb pot with top pair is a lot easier than getting them to put 40bb into a 8bb pot in my experience. But nobody normal is going to be floating 99 or chasing two overs in a generic 3bet pot, so it loses some luster there.

Quote:
We can discuss how to play against the fish who don't understand position if you like, but who needs to?
People like OP who are playing 50nl against a high volume of fish who don't understand position?

Quote:
You made the assumption that a 17% pfr means he's opening wide under the gun. This is an incredibly dangerous assumption. Some 17% raisers open 17% of their hands everywhere, some open as tight as 10% utg and as wide as 30-35% on the button.
I based my assumption on the fact he doesn't have autorebuy on, and he's got a 17% preraise and 5+ aggression. That makes him: "the fish who don't understand position if you like"

Quote:
Other considerations; flatting allows someone else to come into the pot and improve our implied odds. We miss the flop 88% of the time and are obliged to dry bluff cbet, here 44 is only fractionally better than 63 because he might check down with a busted, unpaired draw if he didn't stack off with it on the flop. 63 has the same amount of fold equity on the flop as 44.
3betting prevents other people from choosing to squeeze our pot light. 63o works just as well for bluffing, but 44 allows for still stacking someone. Blah blah blah blah.

We both know the +'s and -'s of what we've said at this point. And the rest is just speculation on what the math says in various situations. Seems boring to continue mathless arguments at this point. Til next time.
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Old Oct 20, 2009, 3:49pm   #34
shendo
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Checking my db, 3betting TT-22 results way better than raising way better than cold calling. 3betting > cold calling nearly 15x better bb/100.

Similarly, TT-22 nearly doubled the win rate of non-premium hands in pots I 3bet.

Obviously, with a fairly small sample (I've only 3bet pairs a few hundred times this year), a few more sets than expected could skew this pretty hard. But there are many of us here.

Bananal, whatchoo got?
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