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Old Nov 25, 2010, 10:09am   #11
Fredrik
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Originally Posted by joeyjoejoejr View Post
If you raise fold the turn a lot that seems like it could potenially be a pretty big leak.
Bigger than folding the turn? (Let's say we have ATs on a Txxx board, in the cutoff vs. utg+1). Bigger than raising the turn and calling a shove? Bigger than calling the turn and folding the river? Bigger than calling the turn and calling the river? Bigger than calling the turn and raising the river all-in? Every line I can take (yes, I know I didn't mention every one) is a leak if I use it every time against a thinking opponent. I do however think that raise-fold the turn is the hardest line to exploit, because the opponent will think he has to commit his entire stack to continue.

I should also mention that these situations don't come up very often, so it's hard for an opponent to get a read on how I play them. And if someone e.g. stops making that second continuation bet against me, or starts shoving to all my turn raises, I should (I hope) notice that pretty fast, and be able to adjust to that. It seems easier for me to adjust than for the opponent.
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Old Nov 25, 2010, 9:16pm   #12
podbelski
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I like to raise the turn for protection with top pair hands, even when I can't call a 3-bet-shove. I also sometimes raise the turn with draws, so there's a lot in my turn raising range that can't handle a 3-bet.
Have you tried to filter this kind of situations in your tracker and see if you are leaking money or not?
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Old Nov 25, 2010, 9:49pm   #13
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Have you tried to filter this kind of situations in your tracker and see if you are leaking money or not?
How would I see that? I can only see how much I've won in those situations, not how much I would have won if I had played them differently. Yes, I could filter for each one of the alternative lines as well, but I would need a sample of many millions of hands to get accurate stats on a specific line. Anyway, I just tried to filter for the last six months (190K hands), top pair on the flop and turn, where I raised the turn. There are at least two different ways to filter for it, and I don't understand the difference. One of the filters says I've won $792 in 21 hands. I only folded 2 of them and won all the others. The other filter says I'm up $608 in 53 hands. This includes a few hands where I lost a full stack or more.

I really don't think this is the type of situation where I might have a big leak.

Last edited by Fredrik; Nov 25, 2010 at 9:54pm.
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Old Nov 25, 2010, 10:26pm   #14
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I not saying that raising for value/protection with top pair and the intention of folding to a 3bet is always bad (its kind of like say 3betting a AQ,AJ type a hand preflop for value but folding to a 4bet could be okay against a lot of players in some spots) but I think calling down is usually better.

Like you said its not going to be easy to determine this from a database and it would take millions of hand.

But I think against anyone that could 3 barrel bluff with some frequency potentially getting this from him is worth the risk of letting his 6-10 outer come in.

Obviously it is going to depend highly on a specific hand/player. In general though I don't like value raising the turn and then folding with 100BB stacks.
I think it might be a more useful part of your game if you are deeper.
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