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Old Apr 05, 2011, 12:41am   #61
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Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
... coca cola moving into your country, destroying local industry with business practises that would be illegal in america, stealing water from already drought stricken regions in exchange for polluting the remaining aquifers and occasionally murdering people.
[x] freedumz


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Originally Posted by 123money321 View Post
I said it was arrogant becuase your saying we're "moseying on in" like we're intruding on your country.
mo·sey (mz)
intr.v. mo·seyed, mo·sey·ing, mo·seys Informal 1. To move in a leisurely, relaxed way; saunter: moseyed over to the club after lunch.
2. To get going; move along.


No lack of welcome is implied.
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 1:30am   #62
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that's a nice way of putting it. suppression of democracy, stewardship of international terrorism and vassalisation of foreign economies. you can't really dress that particular pig as "tragic handling of international issues".



Kc

Many of these tactics were learned from our wonderful brothers from across the pond. As the petri dish for capitalism, colonialism, and industrialization the UK is not innocent in the current problems in the third world. However, I am willing to accept the majority of the blame as 1945+ we took over the mucking up from you and with the help of globalization and technology have exasperated the problem at an exponential rate.

I would also be one to argue that large multinational corporations such as Coke a Cola have grown so powerful it would be hard for the government to control them the way they should be able to.

I think all of these problems stem from the need in a capitalistic society to continue to increase profit at the expense of everything else (social and environmental are the biggest sufferers that come to mind). The first world got to where it is today on the backs of slaves and the exploited and it continues to benefit from them...

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Originally Posted by TWLLM
I think that applies to about 99% of the people on Ptips, including those in their 20s and those above/below that. Including me.
Replace "Ptips" with "Earth" and you wouldn't be far off either. I certainly fall into it, and have had to check myself several times when I notice that I expected to have everything it took my parents 25 years to get a year after I moved out.
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 6:41am   #63
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Many of these tactics were learned from our wonderful brothers from across the pond. As the petri dish for capitalism, colonialism, and industrialization the UK is not innocent in the current problems in the third world.
which is the standard playground deflection and now we've got it out of the way.

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However, I am willing to accept the majority of the blame as 1945+ we took over the mucking up from you and with the help of globalization and technology have exasperated the problem at an exponential rate.
you're willing to accept the blame, but then you try to palm it off on globalisation and technology, as if hellfire missiles were an inevitable consequence of the invention of radio, powered flight, the transistor and microwave ovens. in no way can it be said that technological innovation has been deliberately directed to this end. globalisation too just sprung up out of nowhere and was certainly not planned by the people who own you.

so when the police come knocking and i say, yeah i killed that guy, but i was only able to kill him because i took a stick, sharpened it to a point and stabbed him in the eyes with it, and anyone someone else did basically the same thing two hundred years ago...

lets get one thing out of the way. the british government does not speak for me. it does not represent me, and i owe no allegiance to it. it is an illegitimate political entity and i reject it unequivocally. i participate in it only to the extent that i seek to undermine it.

now that we've said that, we can talk about the british empire, since you invoked it, and it does deserve consideration. yes, the british empire was unjust and no serious person except perhaps the odd crackpot apologist historian would be remotely interested in arguing with you. and yes, like the romans, they built shit and by and large they improved the lives of their subjects, but the exercise of power remains illegitimate. however, the british empire did its bad shit from about 1600 to oh lets say 1800, fell into decline circa 1900 and collapsed around 1950...the united nations and international court of justice were established in 1945. the universal declaration of human rights was signed in 1948. the hague conventions were inked in 1899 and 1907, the geneva conventions in 1864, 1906, 1929 and 1949. i could go on, but i think the point is well made. judge the romans by their own morality, by what they believed and claimed to believe. judge the mongol, french, british and ottoman empires similarly. but judge the americans so, even by the accords drafted at nuremberg after the war to criminalise the actions of the nazi leadership, and you wouldn't have enough rope to hang everyone.

so we've dispensed with the britain did it too argument in several directions, and china can shove its america did it too argument up its ass as well. the british empire was a dick, but the british empire is dead. the ottomans, romans, mongols, babylonians, assyrians, macedonians, aztecs, ooh look at all the empires i know. all gone. not doing shit any more. the american government is doing shit today, they are murdering people today, they are destroying whole countries and oppressing hundreds of millions of people today. and they can be stopped today.

to the next question, whose fault is it? everyone who holds american citizenship. your government ranks as (considered against the contemporary standards of international law and human enlightenment) the most barbaric entity in the history of humanity. orders of magnitude worse than the nazi party. the nazi party at least was born from the madness of desperation and oppression. american imperialism is simply greed and gluttony, supported by sloth.

thence to the last question, what can be done about it, and who can do it? it can be stopped, very easily, and you can do it. 21st century america is still one of the most free societies in the world, but you have fallen into the trap of believing that democracy means ratification of one of two candidates every four years, candidates that are chosen for you. the more enlightened among you will bitch about how they're all the same bunch of cunts but for some reason you can't get it together to actually do something about it. you have more and stronger levers on your government than almost any other society in the history of our species, why in the blue fucking hell don't you try pulling some of them?

of course, if you lived in a police state, where you might actually face some kind of repercussions for standing up to the people who own you, one would be less quick to criticise. indeed, one would sympathise with your helplessness, you would be just another victim of your government. but this is not the case, the penalty for your actions will be negligable at worst.

but you are juiced in. you have high definition televisions and pay per view wrestling. fuck everyone else, i'm going to spend the afternoon drinking beer and masturbating, where the fuck is libya/bahrain/zimbabwe/yemen/etc anyway? you are pacified, just keep sucking on the fake nipple and ignore everything crumbling around you. and to what do you owe this apotheotic lifestyle? nothing short of the participation in, and tacit approval of the crimes of your government. you are a war criminal. if you did not do the things you do that allow your government to do the things they do with your money and your labour and your support, they would not happen.

tl;dr: do something about your fucking government, you're the only people who can.

Quote:
I would also be one to argue that large multinational corporations such as Coke a Cola have grown so powerful it would be hard for the government to control them the way they should be able to.
why?

anyone who doesn't see a solution to the corporate problem that can't be expressed in less than a paragraph needs to sterilise themself. obviously i would express it in nine or ten paragraphs, and i might even draw some diagrams, but i could squeeze that down some if my balls depended on it.

Quote:
I think all of these problems stem from the need in a capitalistic society to continue to increase profit at the expense of everything else (social and environmental are the biggest sufferers that come to mind). The first world got to where it is today on the backs of slaves and the exploited and it continues to benefit from them...
keep going...

Kc
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 7:41am   #64
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Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post

lets get one thing out of the way. the british government does not speak for me. it does not represent me, and i owe no allegiance to it. it is an illegitimate political entity and i reject it unequivocally.
This same argument could be given by me and yet I am called a war criminal. Individuals have no real power and if you think otherwise you are diluted.


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Originally Posted by kc
the british empire was a dick, but the british empire is dead. the ottomans, romans, mongols, babylonians, assyrians, macedonians, aztecs, ooh look at all the empires i know. all gone. not doing shit any more. the american government is doing shit today, they are murdering people today, they are destroying whole countries and oppressing hundreds of millions of people today. and they can be stopped today.
Basically your argument condemns empire at the same time as demonstrating that empire is a beast that has been around for thousands of years. The names change but the atrocities continue. America is falling, and within 50 years it will be the next Britain and we will be having this conversation about China. It seems that focusing on how to end the cycle of empire would be better than bitching about the current one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kc
thence to the last question, what can be done about it, and who can do it? it can be stopped, very easily, and you can do it. 21st century america is still one of the most free societies in the world, but you have fallen into the trap of believing that democracy means ratification of one of two candidates every four years, candidates that are chosen for you. the more enlightened among you will bitch about how they're all the same bunch of cunts but for some reason you can't get it together to actually do something about it. you have more and stronger levers on your government than almost any other society in the history of our species, why in the blue fucking hell don't you try pulling some of them?
People try all the time, sadly though most enlightened people seem to spend more time bitching and arguing pointlessly online then they actually spend doing productive shit in the real world. With that being said I shall remove myself from this thread highjack and allow you to have the last word.
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 5:20pm   #65
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This same argument could be given by me and yet I am called a war criminal.
i chose the term for its impact, but i stand by it. you are a war criminal. you don't need to be hanged, but you do need to recognise that your actions have contributed and continue to contribute to the murder of millions and the oppression of billions. your choices are to do something about this, or to watch american idol.

there is something of non sequitur around here. i was making two distinct points but i will tie them together for the benefit of those who haven't seen this rant before. while i am an anarchist and i actively oppose the tyranny of the british government (whose hands are far from clean), i recognise that a fortuitous accident of birth has granted me certain rights and opportunities within this illegitimate political entity.

while it is by no means a democracy, the tireless work of generations of british citizens have forced the concession of democratic controls from our political masters. the british government operates with a mandate, either explicit or implicit from around 45 million individuals. if enough of these individuals withdraw that mandate, whatever activity it is that has found disfavour must cease, if not, the government itself is removed. i speak not of the mere interchange of personel, but rather the inevitable revolution that hangs over the heads of every western government like swords of damocles.

the system is imperfect, not because of how difficult it is for us to exercise control, but rather because it is possible for us to exercise control. it was not designed for us to use, it was designed to use us. for thousands of years men have fought for greater control over their lives and the apparatus of their bondage. to maintain control, the people who own you have had to make greater and greater concessions to the point that now they only have power because we allow it.

control can no longer be maintained through force, only through deception and distraction; the manufacture of consent and the fostering of disinterest. what you think matters, you must be helped to think the right thing or not at all. you must operate with a shortfall of information making it impossible for you to draw meaningful conclusions for yourself. the information exists and is in the public domain (most of the time, see next paragraph), you can find it if you are so inclined, but you have to find it yourself. favourable analysis of that information is readily available, critical analysis, not so much.

there is one prominent exception to this free exchange of information and ideas, which is the concept of "security". this is common to every regime from the most democratic western nation to the most extreme despot. a tactic which has been overused in recent years and consequently has worn rather thin. short of burning down an orphanage with all the children still inside, there is very little that cannot be achieved under the aegis of security. in the game of politics, security is cheating. but you can only cheat so many times before people grow suspicious of your neverending stream of boats and eventually you get caught. 45 minutes my arse.

together with the encouragement of fear, which augments the effectiveness of national security base dealing, we are also encouraged to be passive. indeed, we are almost screened for passivity. you "succeed" in life by keeping your mouth shut and doing what you're told. from school to the workplace to the church to the discussion of the merits of various athletes and musical ensembles. agree and things go well, dissent and you're dangerous and must be expunged.

we should also include in the case of the united states, flag worship. this exists in other western nations too, but to nothing like the same extent. through a variety of mechanisms, the illusion is fostered that we (by which i mean you) are all part of some special, divinely favoured enclave. america america america, go team, manifest destiny. i pledge allegiance to the flag of what the fuck, seriously? you guys actually say this shit? you make your children say this shit? why don't you just rename your country the peoples democratic republic of america and be done with it? if you don't participate in this tomfoolery, or if you have a functional brain and start to ask questions you are branded antiamerican, another concept which has no place anywhere outside of a totalitarian dictatorship.

so you have your beer, sitting on your sofa watching a monster truck rodeo and idly manipulating your genitals. you're peripherally aware that the economy is in some way fucked and the arabs are something or other but you don't really know what it's about. it's nothing to do with you anyway, you were playing pool when it happened. you wish the world was a better place, but you have no idea how to go about achieving this and doubt there is anything to be done, and anyway, world's most ridiculous police animals is on in a minute.

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Individuals have no real power and if you think otherwise you are diluted.
demonstrably false and irrelevant in any case since individuals form associations. once the will exists the outcome is inevitable.

i could take this opportunity to talk about atomisation, which is another strategy employed by the people who own you to maintain control. as communities we are powerful, but as individuals we feel helpless.

Quote:
Basically your argument condemns empire at the same time as demonstrating that empire is a beast that has been around for thousands of years. The names change but the atrocities continue. America is falling, and within 50 years it will be the next Britain and we will be having this conversation about China. It seems that focusing on how to end the cycle of empire would be better than bitching about the current one.
mm, america will not be the next britain. britain is analogous to the romans, america to the mongols.

the solution to the cycle of empire is mutual cooperation and assistance between politically and industrially democratic societies. this discussion and solution in no way mitigates the ongoing crimes against humanity perpetrated by the incumbent with the tacit support of its constituents. crimes which can be stopped, by people like you.

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People try all the time, sadly though most enlightened people seem to spend more time bitching and arguing pointlessly online then they actually spend doing productive shit in the real world. With that being said I shall remove myself from this thread highjack and allow you to have the last word.
or you could write some letters, lend your support to the groups working to repair the damage of your elected tyranny and work to convince others to do the same. you can always tivo world's most ridiculous police animals.

Kc
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 5:36pm   #66
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Guys, who let KC off the leash when he was on walkies from under his bridge? This happens every time...



EDIT - Does anyone else find it funny that this thread contains a wizard fighting with a troll?
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Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?

Last edited by TWLLM; Apr 06, 2011 at 1:42am.
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Old Apr 06, 2011, 11:22pm   #67
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once the will exists the outcome is inevitable.
Did someone really type this statement?
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