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Old Apr 02, 2005, 12:55am   #1
Tyrone Shuz
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Default Has anybody ever not "paid the price"

I'd like to play with better players (but not too much better!!) but I don't want to pay the price. I'm trying to read books and columns and play small ring games to hone my chops, as it were.

I want to hold my own at the next level, not lose a bunch of $. The question is, when does one know one is ready for the next level?

Poker is a lot like playing music. Playing by the "ABC"s well will win most of the time, but not against the real killer players. I don't want to play them, maybe ever, but certainly not now. I'm still honing the ABCs.

But I'm tired of losing to guys that never should have been there by the river, or losing to KK because they didn't raise pre-flop, so I would use that to deduce they couldn't possibly have KK.
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Old Apr 02, 2005, 2:31am   #2
killcrazy
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17. you're ready.

if you think it's time to go for it, go for it. if you lose some money, drop down again

I should get this printed on a t shirt

And not raising preflop never means he doesn't have a big hand. limping a big PP is a pretty standard ABC move, but stick a note on the guy for future reference, its worth knowing that player C is wont to do that, as some guys bet the hell out of everything they get.

Kc
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Old Apr 02, 2005, 5:11am   #3
Tyrone Shuz
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There are so many differing philosophies. Small Stakes Hold 'Em says to bet the hell out of high PPs because they often don't improve, and with so many callers, you can be drawn out on, so you must make 'em pay (basically). That's the only book I've read so far.

If I'm looking at a backdoor draw with no redraws after the flop, I'm only taking free cards. I'll look at the turn if the pot is large, for one bet. So somebody slow-playing KK is doing me a favor, right?

I guess I need work in figuring out what other folks have. I've correctly folded full houses before, so I'm not afraid of it, but it's really difficult to assume somebody is playing 45os, but it happens a lot.
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Old Apr 02, 2005, 10:20am   #4
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Default Re: Has anybody ever not "paid the price"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Shuz
But I'm tired of losing to guys that never should have been there by the river.
Realizing that this is making you tons of money is one step that will make you a better player. This statement occures so often and they always want to pay against better players. BUT when they are at this stage, the better players will eat you alive.

Weak players limp with KK and don't bet when an ace comes. They only collect small pots with them. Good players may limp with KK, but take also know how to win a big pot, when someone with top pair queens thinks he won...

Reread SSHE and start to realize that every mistake an opponent does, is making you money, in the long run.

Sure, it is frustrating when someone with bottom pair calls you down and hits trips on the river. But the other 20 times you play this hand with him, he will lose!

When you want people to play tight and respect your raises, you won't be making any money!

Concentrate on value betting and protecting your hand and crush those games!
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Old Apr 02, 2005, 7:56pm   #5
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*sigh*

SSHE is going to fuck so many people up. I've been saying this for months and I'm repeatedly proven right. It's like building a house without a roof, you're going to end up cold and wet. Like trying to dance before you've evolved legs.

Read Lee Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold'Em, then read it again, then play some, then read SSHE again

Kc
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Old Apr 02, 2005, 8:03pm   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy
SSHE is going to fuck so many people up.
It's not a book for a complete beginner. And it costs many people money at poker, because the misapply concepts or don't understand them directly.

Once mastered the skills explained in the book, it's pure gold.

By the way... Did you actually read WLLH kc? It has a lot of mistakes in it.
Didn't you then take the advice with a grain of salt?

Or do you just say he should read it, because you heard it helped peoples play?
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Old Apr 02, 2005, 9:08pm   #7
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Absolutely, but SSHE is being hawked as this holy grail of poker. Much like there used to be the mantra of "read WLLH then HPFAP" the same should be applied to SSHE.

I read Jones long ago, yes, I think the biggest mistake in the thinking of new players is that they play too loose and throw money at bad situations. You need to tighten them up and ground them with solid fundamentals, then they can start to patch up the wee holes and start thinking about maximising their EV a la SSHE.

Sure there are small holes in Jones' approach, it isn't a guaranteed flow chart to millions, but it's like womens basketball - good fundamentals.

Kc
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Old Apr 02, 2005, 9:13pm   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy
I read Jones long ago, yes, I think the biggest mistake in the thinking of new players is that they play too loose and throw money at bad situations. You need to tighten them up and ground them with solid fundamentals, then they can start to patch up the wee holes and start thinking about maximising their EV a la SSHE.
Yes, that's exactly what I think WLLH is good for. As a beginner book, to tighten up and learn a little flop play.

I don't like that he spreads rumours about charing flush draws on the flop or things like that.
You cannot protect your hand against flushdraws, in low limit pots they will nearly always get the correct odds to call you down till the river.
They will always stay with you, either they hit and you lose or they don't and you win. (Of course, sometimes they hit, but you win, these are the best moments of all ;) )

But I see what you wanted to achieve with your post. If he didn't get the things in wllh he shouldn't be reading SSH because with his understanding it will cripple his game, cause he cannot apply the advice correct...
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Old Apr 02, 2005, 11:42pm   #9
Tyrone Shuz
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I should check out that other book. What chapters should I avoid, or are the errors strewn about evenly?

I revisit SSHE often and find little details to apply. I've been trying to Protect My Hand more. This is very hard in low limit games, it seems. It builds the pot (nice when you win) but if the Protection part of it worked, I wouldn't be losing to 45os.

They recommend raising if you have a good draw, which seemed weird at first. Before I read it, I would have been real hesitant to raise without some sort of made hand (decent pair or two) rather than just on a flush or open-ended straight.

I like the book, but there's a lot to learn. I was about 500 BB up over a few months' play, but the last 10 days have been negative overall, by far the longest stretch I've ever experienced. I'm down about 50 BB over that time. It's bad enough that I'm wondering if this is real, and the previous three or four months was all luck!

Last night I won the first hand, then didn't win another for almost two hours, fought back to even, and got the HELL outta there! Perhaps my luck is changing...Maybe I need a shrink more than a book!
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Old Apr 03, 2005, 8:46am   #10
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Protecting your hand isn't about getting people to fold, it's about giving the people the wrong odds, which makes an call incorrect.

When they make an incorrect call, when they should fold, you will win this money. You cannot get the most people to fold with a raise.

Maybe you try to protect vulnerable hands to much on the flop. Wait for the turn then to raise (when a blank falls), this protects your hand better sometimes. The field is faced with calling 2BB cold now.
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