THE FORUMS


German ForumsGeneral DiscussionStrategyFrench Forum

Go Back   PokerTips.org Forums > Strategy > Limit Hold'em and Miscellaneous Strategy

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Apr 26, 2005, 11:47pm   #11
xenthebrain
I am so smart. S-M-R-T
 
xenthebrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,408
Reputation: 465
xenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woosta2
The trouble with AJo is this:

By raising, you can get worse hands to fold. You will not, however, make hands which are better than yours fold.

C'mon, you two were the ones that told me to read WLLH.
When you raise with AA, will you get better hands to fold? Where is the logic behind that.
xenthebrain est déconnecté   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Don't like this ad? Register to make it go away!

Old Apr 27, 2005, 10:49am   #12
BadBeatBasti
BadBeatMod
 
BadBeatBasti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London, UK
Posts: 2,012
Reputation: 376
BadBeatBasti is just really niceBadBeatBasti is just really niceBadBeatBasti is just really niceBadBeatBasti is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenthebrain
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woosta2
The trouble with AJo is this:

By raising, you can get worse hands to fold. You will not, however, make hands which are better than yours fold.

C'mon, you two were the ones that told me to read WLLH.
When you raise with AA, will you get better hands to fold? Where is the logic behind that.
@xen: He wrote AJ, not AA.

@woo: Yes, you want the worse hands to fold or make it expensive for them to catch a lucky flop. If somebody has preflop a better hand, then of course the flop flop, turn and river decides who'll win. But you don't want to lose to the BB because you did not raise!
__________________
When a man with money meets a man with experience, then the man with experience leaves with the money and the man with money leaves with experience.
BadBeatBasti est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 27, 2005, 11:13am   #13
xenthebrain
I am so smart. S-M-R-T
 
xenthebrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,408
Reputation: 465
xenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBeatBasti
@xen: He wrote AJ, not AA.
I know, read my posts twice before you correct me...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBeatBasti
@woo: Yes, you want the worse hands to fold or make it expensive for them to catch a lucky flop. If somebody has preflop a better hand, then of course the flop flop, turn and river decides who'll win. But you don't want to lose to the BB because you did not raise!
If I have AJo or AA I don't want worst hands to fold, cause that's how I make money. I don't want to raise my AA and get the blinds. But's thats the deal with low limit, they call even your raises and don't fold, that's because a raise is correct.
And if you don't get it, then win your tiny pots by playing weak and afraid of losing with big hands in low limit.
xenthebrain est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 27, 2005, 11:47am   #14
skeldol
Flop Artist
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 56
Reputation: 0
skeldol
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy
ah but if you raise preflop, no-ones gonna drop, but they're going to have odds to chase, so their board play becomes correct.

discuss

Kc
it's for this reason i raise the question. a raise preflop from the SB with loads of limpers isn't going to get rid of anyyone. the flop pot is going to be so big what would have been incorrect play (to call a longshot) is suddenly correct.

if you pair your jack on the flop you want everyone out on the flop so is calling preflop not the best way to proect your hand?
skeldol est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 27, 2005, 12:35pm   #15
Fredrik
Professional
 
Fredrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 148
Fredrik will become famous soon enoughFredrik will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenthebrain
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woosta2
The trouble with AJo is this:

By raising, you can get worse hands to fold. You will not, however, make hands which are better than yours fold.

C'mon, you two were the ones that told me to read WLLH.
When you raise with AA, will you get better hands to fold? Where is the logic behind that.
He didn't say that there's no point in raising unless you can get better hands to fold, so there's no need to criticize his logic. He's just saying that every hand that's better than AJ will call (at least), while some of the weaker ones that you might want to call will fold.

The real question here is whether a raise will increase your EV or not. I don't know the answer to that with certainty, but I believe the answer is that your EV will decrease if you raise.
Fredrik est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 27, 2005, 12:40pm   #16
xenthebrain
I am so smart. S-M-R-T
 
xenthebrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,408
Reputation: 465
xenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik
The real question here is whether a raise will increase your EV or not. I don't know the answer to that with certainty, but I believe the answer is that your EV will decrease if you raise.
Yes, guessing makes the right play I believe.... NOT
xenthebrain est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 27, 2005, 12:54pm   #17
Fredrik
Professional
 
Fredrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 148
Fredrik will become famous soon enoughFredrik will become famous soon enough
Default

Some of you seem to be saying that a preflop bet is wrong if it might give one or more of your opponents the pot odds to chase after the flop. I believe it's exactly the opposite. Consider this example:

A no limit game. Blinds 10/15. (This is common in tourneys). KK raises to 80 and gets called by T8s. Flop J72 rainbow. KK bets 15. In this situation it's definitely correct to call with T8s, but does that mean that the preflop raise was wrong? Of course not. The flop will sometimes favor the weaker hand, but not often enough to make the raise a bad idea. If the guy with KK knows that his opponent usually calls large raises with weak hands, that should encourage him to raise before the flop, not the other way round. A raise with a strong hand increases the EV if it's likely that your opponents will call.
Fredrik est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 27, 2005, 1:01pm   #18
xenthebrain
I am so smart. S-M-R-T
 
xenthebrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,408
Reputation: 465
xenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of lightxenthebrain is a glorious beacon of light
Default

One post ago you said the opposite. But your example is true. It is what I said, the opponent makes a big mistake (KK vs T8s is a very big bistake) preflop and can play correctly after the flop.

So in a limit game you push your pot equity edge preflop and adjust to the new situation after the flop. Your overall EV is higher (But the EV is positive in both situations)

And again, this applys only cause the opponents play weak hands
xenthebrain est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 27, 2005, 1:18pm   #19
Fredrik
Professional
 
Fredrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 148
Fredrik will become famous soon enoughFredrik will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenthebrain
One post ago you said the opposite.
No I didn't say the opposite. I just don't consider AJ a strong enough hand. The hand is garbage against 4 or more opponents every time the top card on the flop isn't an ace or a jack.

I wouldn't say the same about AK, because it's more likely to win those times we get a flop we like. It's also more likely to improve to a winner and less likely to improve to a second best hand.
Fredrik est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 27, 2005, 1:23pm   #20
Fredrik
Professional
 
Fredrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 148
Fredrik will become famous soon enoughFredrik will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenthebrain
Yes, guessing makes the right play I believe.... NOT
And you're not guessing? Then what scientific method did you use, o great one?

(If you detect a hint of sarcasm, it's because I think you have a slight attitude problem. Most of the time I agree with your opinions, but I don't always like the way you express them).
Fredrik est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 4:08pm. vBulletin 3.7.4 Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.