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Old Apr 27, 2005, 1:23pm   #21
skeldol
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i think i agree with fred on this one.

i'm tending to think that a raise with AJo is ok when against one or two opponents as then it's worth knocking the blinds out.

at present i always raise AJo from EP. what do you think about this?
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Old Apr 27, 2005, 1:40pm   #22
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If you know your opponents well, and you think they are watching the pot odds...... and you think raising pre flop will entice other skilled players to stay in the hand longer and play more skillfully than you after the flop then maybe you should just call. Just as long as you realize you're giving something else up in return. And maybe you should look for a softer game, because at low limits this situation should be rare.
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Old Apr 27, 2005, 1:42pm   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik
Quote:
Originally Posted by xenthebrain
Yes, guessing makes the right play I believe.... NOT
And you're not guessing? Then what scientific method did you use, o great one?
Read this
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik
(If you detect a hint of sarcasm, it's because I think you have a slight attitude problem. Most of the time I agree with your opinions, but I don't always like the way you express them).
I don't care if you agree with something, when you didn't take the time to really think about it.
A quick guess without considering the arguments that were already explainend has no value for me.
Put some lines of thoughts behind that what you think is the right play and then maybe try to proof other arguments were wrong.
We don't need to discuss something when everyone just says what he guesses without discussing the arguments...
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Old Apr 27, 2005, 8:03pm   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenthebrain
I don't care if you agree with something, when you didn't take the time to really think about it.
There's that attitude problem again... I expressed an opinion, and made it perfectly clear that I can't know for sure that I'm right, let alone prove it. That doesn't mean that I didn't take the time to really think about it.

You on the other hand expressed an opinion, and just pretended that you were making an argument. You offered no evidence, but you demand evidence from me. That's just ridicilous.

I asked you to motivate your opinion (since you were demanding it from me), and you gave me a link to a page with someone else's opinions, about a different situation! I don't care that that guy is a famous and successful poker player. He hasn't proved his claims either. But more importantly, he's talking about AQ, not AJ. (I would raise with AQ). Where do you draw the line? Would you raise with AT? Would you raise with A7?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenthebrain
A quick guess without considering the arguments that were already explainend has no value for me.
What arguments? We're talking about ace-jack here. What arguments have you or anyone else presented to support the claim that you make more money in the long run if you raise with AJ?

There are only three ways that a claim like that can be proved: a) by doing computer simulations, b) by examining the statistics from a database of tens of thousands of hands with AJ against three limpers, and c) by a direct mathematical calculation.

Which of those three did you use, and where in this thread did you post the results?
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Old Apr 27, 2005, 9:30pm   #25
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from the cited article (AQo in LP):

Quote:
"So when playing, and you are in one of these spots, the texture of the game should tell you what to do. If you're against very loose poor playing opponents, which is typical of the small stakes, go ahead and raise. If your opponents play better than this, which is more typical of the middle and high limits, then calling frequently becomes correct." .
So, we have to modify it for the situation. Fair enough.

In the original situation posted here, it was SB, AJo, with a ton of limpers. By raising, they generally have the odds to all call (and if not, their mistakes are good for you). However, AJo is a hand thats better against fewer opponents. Raising will not limit the field in this case, but there will be lots of people playing with lessor hands, some of which are drawing hands) for lots of cash - a good, not perfect, situation with drawing hands, in other words.

In fact, this will be true if you raise or not. AJo only makes one straight, 2 if you count the board help of 2345, but then you dont have the nut straight. A flush would be good, but you'd need a four-flush board. Essentially, its a top pair top kicker / 2 pair hand, mainly. If anyone makes a drawing hand, you're likely beat.

Point is, you want few opponents with AJo unless they're really horrible (like, pacific .25/.50 horrible) about what they call with. Rasing won't help here. Players in EP that just called may already be ahead of you. Given that they're not pre-flop maniacs, I say call.
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Old Apr 28, 2005, 10:33am   #26
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So...from the blinds, I'd limp or check this

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Old Apr 28, 2005, 8:46pm   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy
ah but if you raise preflop, no-ones gonna drop, but they're going to have odds to chase, so their board play becomes correct.

discuss

Kc
This is assuming they're playing some what decent hands PF, but most low limit players will tend to limp in with pure garbage like J4 and K2. You want to punish them when your edge is high. Plus there's a chance you can get BB to fold as well. I wouldn't say a raise is clear cut here, but you should be raising here some of the time and calling the other times.
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Old Apr 29, 2005, 9:42am   #28
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i limped my AJ last night against 3 callers and got a good kicking from the guy who limped AK!!! Flop came A 7 2 rainbow
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Old Apr 29, 2005, 1:02pm   #29
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you saved a bet.

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Old May 08, 2005, 10:48pm   #30
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I agree with Kill Crazy here. I understand where people are coming from when they mention that it increases expected value. But there are a lot of people on low limit that limp in with KQs and KJs which have a higher expected value than AJo. In fact Q9s has a better expected value 10 handed than AJ offsuit so you are actually hurting you EV and increasing most everybody elses. Now if suited, I like a raise but not if it is unsuited.
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