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Old Jul 19, 2005, 1:31am   #1
chefski
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Default Automatic all-in to protect yourself...?

Ok, after suffering many stupid beats all day long on Sunday and realizing it just wasn't my day, I do have a question about a beat that stung a bit and see if I could have prevented it...

I'm on the button, blinds at 50/100 and sitting at ~ $1600. I get four limp-ins at $50. I raise my pkt. A's to $300 and get two callers. Flop comes Js, 2s, 3d. Two players ahead check, I bet to $500. I get one caller. Turn is 6s and I assume the chaser has hit his flush. He goes all-in and I'm pot committed and lose to the flush when he turns over his 7s8s.

My question is, after the flop, is my next bet an automatic push to protect my A's against the flush? Was the $500 bet too little? Fold the A's after the turn?
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 2:32am   #2
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Default Re: Automatic all-in to protect yourself...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefski
He goes all-in and I'm pot committed and lose to the flush when he turns over his 7s8s.
Can you back this up with the math? I'm not questioning you, I just like to understand better. You were in for half your stack. Are you really pot committed? When he goes all in after hitting the spade, you'd really have to reanalyze the hand. The guy called your $300 raise and your $500 bet on the flop. What do you really have at this point?
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 7:14pm   #3
chefski
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Well, at that point there was $2100 + his raise in the pot including the initial bets and calls. So, I guess the number is an additional $800 on my part for a return of $3600 total. That is a separate issue to debate.

My main question is after the flop, do I push in to protect my A's...?
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 7:20pm   #4
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Pushing doesn't protect your hand from a better one. If you're beat, he's calling and you just gave him more chips.

Likewise. Someone on this site once said, "You're never pot committed if you are sure that you'll lose.

If I had just hit the flush, I'd be laughing hard if some guy who can't lay down aces goes all in.

On the flop, then yes you still have a chance at protecting your hand. Just give bad odds, and fold if he hits. Simple.
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 7:35pm   #5
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Depends on the size of the SNG. I think if it's a $5 or a $10 or maybe even a $20 - you just push in - because they players are bad enough that they're going to call you with KJ or two spades.

$30 and higher - I think you have to play ball with them. I'd bet about 650 after the flop though - just to make it deadly clear to them that they do not have the best hand - nor do they have the right pot odds to try to build the best hand.
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 7:40pm   #6
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Default Push All in

chefski,
Sounds to me like you didn't bet enough on the flop and therefore gave your opponent good pot odds to draw out on you.
I estimate there was 200 (4*50) + 900 (3*300) = 1100 in the pot preflop based on your explanation of the preflop action.

Now, on the flop, you are betting 500. So your opponent needs to pay 500 to win 1600 in the pot. Not only that, he has some implied odds as well because he stands to win even more if he hits the flush (and in this case, he did make the flush and did win even more chips). So he got 3 to 1 odds against your AA with some implied odds.

I'd much rather bet at least 1100 on the flop (bet the pot).
If he hasn't got much more than 1100 anyway, then I'd overbet the pot and put him all in.
The reason is that if he has only 1500 and he is considering spending 1100 here, he is commited anyway and will call till the river to chase the flush. Better to get all of his chips now before he can back out.

So in summary, the best move appears to me to make a bet of at least 1100 and one of 2 things will happen.
1) You force him to lay down his hand and you take a nice pot
2) You force him to make a bad call in a situation where he is not getting the right odds.

BTW - I do agree with the preflop raise.

See you at the tables,
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 8:44pm   #7
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Default Re: Automatic all-in to protect yourself...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefski
Ok, after suffering many stupid beats all day long on Sunday and realizing it just wasn't my day, I do have a question about a beat that stung a bit and see if I could have prevented it...

I'm on the button, blinds at 50/100 and sitting at ~ $1600. I get four limp-ins at $50. I raise my pkt. A's to $300 and get two callers. Flop comes Js, 2s, 3d. Two players ahead check, I bet to $500. I get one caller. Turn is 6s and I assume the chaser has hit his flush. He goes all-in and I'm pot committed and lose to the flush when he turns over his 7s8s.

My question is, after the flop, is my next bet an automatic push to protect my A's against the flush? Was the $500 bet too little? Fold the A's after the turn?
Ok, first problem with the post... just for clarity, you stated the blinds are at 50/100. Then say four limp in for 50. Uhmm, which one is it? BB is 50 or 100?

Let's say it's 100. 4 limpers plus the BB and SB. Pot = T550. Or about 1/3 your current stack. Your preflop raise of 300 is too small. You'd have to at least put in a pot sized bet, but with that many limpers you're probably going to have to put in about T800 or T1000 to shake the shit hands off.

If it's 50... Pot = T275. Again, your preflop raise was too small IMO. Depending on the buy in and the mood at the table, as well as your image you have to raise more. You more or less offered 2:1 for your opponents plus implied odds if they hit their little drawing hand. Not to mention, with 4 limpers, the pot was only going to get tastier as more people call your preflop raise. You also didn't mention stack sizes. This is something to consider when you're in a tourney so in future posts including this info is helpful for determining what went wrong.

As far as calling when you're "pot committed" it's just plain dumb. If you're sure he's on a flush, there is no card that can come to save you, so you're wise to fold here. I personally love it when someone calls an all in and then tells me they were "pot committed" and had to call when it's impossible for them to win.

Your only course of action on that flop is either move in after they check in which case you're forcing them to make an incorrect call. Or you could check/fold if the flush shows up. I'm not a fan of check/fold but if a money finish was important you've still got T1300 to play with if you release this hand. You really put yourself in a spot with a T500 bet. It's not enough to make anyone on a draw fold, but it's enough to take your own legs out if the turn helps a drawing hand and you have to release your AA.

Anyway, good luck next time.


Grant
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 9:34pm   #8
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being there are so many mixups im going to take a stab and say your pot was at least $750. I would of been betting like $900 or so to put pressure and make him think about his hand. if he still would of called then there is nothing you could of done.

i certainly wouldnt of laid them down at the flop , and your only up against one other person, sooo..... the only thing i could say was the bet should of been bigger to make this guy think at all if hes any kind of player. i know if i were facing those bets with that board my 78spades would shrink up real bad.
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 10:00pm   #9
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have=of??????
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Old Jul 19, 2005, 10:50pm   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason1
being there are so many mixups im going to take a stab and say your pot was at least $750. I would of been betting like $900 or so to put pressure and make him think about his hand. if he still would of called then there is nothing you could of done.

i certainly wouldnt of laid them down at the flop , and your only up against one other person, sooo..... the only thing i could say was the bet should of been bigger to make this guy think at all if hes any kind of player. i know if i were facing those bets with that board my 78spades would shrink up real bad.
4 Limpers @ 50
BB @ 50
SB @ 25
subtotal 275
+ poster's raise of 300
2 callers of the raise totalling an additional 600.
1175 is the pot at the flop. There was a descrepancy regarding the blind amount in the orginal post but that would add an additional 275 to the pot bringing it to 1450.

So a 900 dollar bet in either scenario is still too small. IMO you either jam after they check to you. Or you check as well, and then fold the turn if the drawing hand gets made. Unfortunately, your only indication that the hand was made is when one of the earlier position players pushes in on you at the turn and then there's a chance he/she is only representing the flush... ugly no matter how you slice it. As stated in my previous post. Move em in on the flop. Even if they fold (which is ideal considering you're only holding a pair) you've improved your stack by 175% without a showdown.

Judging by the volume of limpers in this hand I would guess it was a lower buy in STT and I personally don't feel you could have shaken the flush draw no matter what you bet. In my experiene, the cheaper buy in STT's lack fold buttons for a lot of players. However, at least if you jammed the flop you would have some comfort in providing the worst odds possible for your opponent to draw out on you and therefore, you have made the right play. With that flop you were a 63% favorite to win assuming one of your aces wasn't a spade. If it were your percentage increases to 68%. IMO a fine place to get your chips in the middle. I feel the error in this entire hand was made preflop and the rest of the hand is consequence of poor preflop play.

Grant
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