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Old Oct 28, 2005, 3:14pm   #1
balefire97
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Default When should i have folded?

***** Hand History for Game 2865229447 *****
$2/$4 Texas Hold'em - Thursday, October 27, 20:49:39 EDT 2005
Table Table 24998 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: awebo ( $74 )
Seat 2: endplayed ( $73 )
Seat 3: zav999 ( $187 )
Seat 4: sandmane ( $82.50 )
Seat 5: leejaye ( $23.24 )
Seat 6: ndavisAA ( $98 )
Seat 7: T_r_i_o ( $58.88 )
Seat 8: dougfish147 ( $66 )
Seat 9: surenderordi ( $51.50 )
Seat 10: b8ender11 ( $118 )
ndavisAA posts small blind [$1].
T_r_i_o posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ndavisAA [ Ah Kd ]
dougfish147 calls [$2].
surenderordi folds.
b8ender11 folds.
awebo folds.
endplayed folds.
zav999 folds.
sandmane calls [$2].
leejaye calls [$2].
ndavisAA raises [$3].
T_r_i_o calls [$2].
dougfish147 raises [$4].
sandmane folds.
leejaye calls [$4].
ndavisAA raises [$4].
T_r_i_o calls [$4].
dougfish147 calls [$2].
leejaye calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Th, 9s, 9h ]
ndavisAA bets [$2].
T_r_i_o calls [$2].
dougfish147 calls [$2].
leejaye calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ]
ndavisAA checks.
T_r_i_o checks.
dougfish147 bets [$4].
leejaye calls [$4].
ndavisAA calls [$4].
T_r_i_o calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ 8h ]
ndavisAA checks.
T_r_i_o checks.
dougfish147 bets [$4].
leejaye folds.
ndavisAA calls [$4].
T_r_i_o calls [$4].
dougfish147 shows [ Jh, As ] a pair of nines.
ndavisAA shows [ Ah, Kd ] a pair of nines.
T_r_i_o shows [ Ts, Js ] two pairs, tens and nines.
T_r_i_o wins $67 from the main pot with two pairs, tens and nines.


I will ask again. When should i have folded this hand?? Thanks in advance.
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Old Oct 28, 2005, 3:36pm   #2
CBone
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4 players see the flop, your bet on the flop is called, the turn brings no help...I see no reason to call a bet on the turn then. So, fold on the turn. Seriously, I got no idea why you called this hand down, you did not seriously think your Ace high was good, did you?
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Old Oct 28, 2005, 3:50pm   #3
balefire97
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Well since you asked I will answer. Yes I was thinking it might be good. They were tight/passive players and the whole time I was thinking the only hands that they could have that would beat me was JT or AT and I was right. I will admit that was a bad play but that is why i am only playing 2/4. I have only played 14,000 hands at the 2/4 so i am still pretty new.
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Old Oct 28, 2005, 4:00pm   #4
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Sorry, didn't want to offend you, apologies if it sounded like that. I have to admit, that I don't play much LHE (and if I do, with not much success ), but with 4 players to the hand and a bet in front of you, someone has hit something. As said, I would have folded on the turn, thus not paying a big bet.
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Old Oct 28, 2005, 5:53pm   #5
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Check-fold the turn UI. Even if you are drawing live on the flop you're out of position and have to expect your opponents hold some of your outs in their hand. Don't check and call down OOP. The board is paired and the river card puts four to a straight out there AND completes the flush draw. Tight-passive is not in there and calling down with a busted draw/naked overs.

Looks to me like dougfish and T_r_i_o are trying very hard to give money away. Fold the turn and let them give their money to you later.
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Old Oct 28, 2005, 10:48pm   #6
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If you reallying that they are betting with something like JJ, then a call on the flop is ok, but the turn is not offering you good odds.

Then there's the chance that you are drawing dead. And I doubt ace high is any good in this situation.
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Old Dec 03, 2005, 12:51am   #7
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Going beyond the OP's question, I see no reason to raise preflop. You are in worst position and there's no reason to try and control this pot without help since there are so many people in it. You know that the three limpers are going to call your raise. Only the BB might fold but he probably will call too. So you're up against 3-4 people from first position with a drawing hand.

I would just complete and play this hand like the drawing hand that it is. If you hit a good board, play it strongly, if you hit a bad board, get out with minimal damage. You have to pay attention to postion a lot in limit poker. If you were on the button than this is an autoraise hand, but you weren't.

The only time I might raise from the SB is if the AK was suited. AKo is just too weak to raise out of position into 3-4 other players.

That being said, in the situation you were in, I don't think the turn call was horrible, but a fold is good as well. The pot was so big at that point ($47) that a call of $4 has decent odds to hit around 4 outs (discounted because of the possible flush/straight/two pair draws, etc.). This is assuming that your read of your opponents is correct that they might even bet hands that you still beat.

And on the river, you are almost forced to call since leejaye folded (but raising here would have been the sweetest play ever if Trio folded). This just goes to show that creating a big pot preflop with a drawing hand out of position can lead to very bad situations when you don't hit. All of this could have been avoided by taking a slightly passive approach to the hand and waiting until you hit/missed to decide whether to bet or check/fold.
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Old Dec 03, 2005, 1:13am   #8
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See, this is what I don't understand about what you just said and what Lee Jones says in his book about raising from the blinds because if AK is a hand with +EV then I want the pot as large as possible preflop everytime and any raise I make is a good one.

If you don't hit you can get out with minimal loss but you are going to hit an A or K 1/3 of the time on flops so with 3 callers that is yet another reason to raise preflop.

I understand what you are saying about it putting you in bad situations post flop, but is that really a good enough reason to sacrafice a bet with +EV??
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Old Dec 03, 2005, 1:49am   #9
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Manny, here is my thought.

By the time the betting got around to the SB there were so many people already in that by the SB raising and the others calling (assuming they would call the raise like they did), you have now made the pot great for chasing draws to the end. If you did get your 1/3 chance of an A or K hitting the flop your not going to get anyone to fold with their draw. So I tend to agree with just calling to see the flop as now you are hoping for the draw. You catch a good draw, you stay in. You hit an A or K you do what you think will get the most out. It would be more of thinning the field than maximizing the pot if I caught TPTK. Thinking "reverse implied odds" is the description of this line of thought.

Raising AK UTG or early is a different story. Then your trying to both maximize your premium cards AND get the possible drawers out of the hand before the flop. By the SB with that many players, it's too late.
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Old Dec 03, 2005, 2:22am   #10
ImAllInNow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
See, this is what I don't understand about what you just said and what Lee Jones says in his book about raising from the blinds because if AK is a hand with +EV then I want the pot as large as possible preflop everytime and any raise I make is a good one.

If you don't hit you can get out with minimal loss but you are going to hit an A or K 1/3 of the time on flops so with 3 callers that is yet another reason to raise preflop.

I understand what you are saying about it putting you in bad situations post flop, but is that really a good enough reason to sacrafice a bet with +EV??
I don't really know if AKo has positive equity (> 20% chance of winning the pot with 5 total players in) to raise there in the first place. It may indeed have a small amount of +equity, but the lack of good postion takes a lot of that equity away.

Against AJo, JTo, 44, and 73o, AKo will win 25% of the time. So you have 125% equity in the pot (every $1 you risk should give you $1.25), but I still think this small equity edge doesn't call for a raise because of your bad position which results in you winning less when you hit then you lose when you miss (reverse implied odds).

Related to the argument that you are giving up a +EV bet, just limping has the added benefit of hiding the strength of your hand when you do hit an A or K. You are much more likely to get a lot of action by someone with a worse kicker if you limp then if you raise. All this extra action will more than make up for the $8 you miss by not raising preflop.

For the same reason, it's sometimes best to limp with QQ and then come out betting a flop without an A or K in the same situation. You are more likely to get paid off by weaker hands because of your lack of a raise preflop. It's sort of the best of both worlds.

If you do raise preflop, you have to realize that you still need to improve to win the pot (edit: with AK, not QQ). You can't expect to buy the pot. As long as you play postflop with that mentality, you'll be fine either way.
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