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Old Sep 29, 2005, 5:31pm   #1
AJS
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Default Right move, Right?

Like some feedback on this one - Right move or ...?
Very loose table. Earlier, 4 limpers I raised 10 BB in small blind and got three callers so pre flop raises just don't get it heads up.

-----------------------------------------------------
Game #998524279 - (blinds $0.05/$0.10) No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2005/09/29-00:35:31.6 (CST)
Table "Balicuatro" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: Me ($23.00 in chips)
Seat 2: McMizzle ($18.05 in chips)
Seat 3: Bald168 ($3.95 in chips)
Seat 4: Rusty River ($13.23 in chips)
Seat 5: lawless1 ($11.70 in chips)
Seat 6: arlacuesta ($11.55 in chips)
Seat 7: TightTrader ($9.35 in chips)
Seat 8: 64 gto ($7.05 in chips)
Seat 9: belewskye ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 10: duffydo ($17.80 in chips)
arlacuesta: Post Small Blind ($0.05)
TightTrader: Post Big Blind ($0.10)
Dealing...
Dealt to Me [ Tc ]
Dealt to Me [ Ac ]
64 gto : Call ($0.10)
belewskye: Call ($0.10)
duffydo : Call ($0.10)
Me : Call ($0.10) Going for cheep flush here
McMizzle: Raise ($0.20) Tight Agressive straight forward player if he's in the hand it's for a reason.
Bald168 : Call ($0.20)
Rusty River: Fold
lawless1: Call ($0.20)
arlacuesta: Raise ($0.25) Haven't noticed any particular patterns yet, loose but no dumb moves.
TightTrader: Call ($0.20)
64 gto : Call ($0.20)
belewskye: Call ($0.20)
duffydo : Call ($0.20)
Me : Call ($0.20) Not worried about the stair climbing bets as I have the kind of hand suited for it.
McMizzle: Call ($0.10)
Bald168 : Call ($0.10)
arlacuesta said, "family pot"
lawless1: Call ($0.10) $2.70 if I added right
*** FLOP *** : [ Jd 6c 4c ]
arlacuesta: Check
TightTrader: Check
64 gto : Check
belewskye: Check
duffydo : Check
Me : Bet ($2) Ok, First question, good move or bad. I was early and... My idea was (1) somone is betting at this flop, if I call they will put me on the draw and not pay me off if I hit. "deception play". (2) Way too many unknown's about this hand lets get it defined. Expecting multiple callers.
McMizzle: Raise ($5) He feels he his ahead and wants to isolate and kill the draws. AJ, over pair, JJ. He has me now but I am drawing to beat him and he might not realize it, my bet may work out here.
Bald168 : Fold
lawless1: Fold
arlacuesta: Raise ($11.25) Didn't expect that. One of us has the best hand, one of us is drawing to it, one of us is dead money
TightTrader: Fold
64 gto : Fold
belewskye: Fold
duffydo : Fold
Me : Raise ($20.70) Second Question...Thinking... It is now $9.25 to call a $20.95 pot, 2-1 to see the river against Arlacuesta pot odds say call but... McMizzle is a tight agressive, if he has a hand, and I believe he does, he is not letting me see the next two cards for free. He is either all in now or pushing hard on the turn. So IMO it was either fold or push and try to get McMizzle to lay down if his hand isn't all that strong, or, if he calls I still am getting pretty good odds.
McMizzle: Call All-in ($12.75)
*** TURN *** : [ Jd 6c 4c ] [ 8h ]
*** RIVER *** : [ Jd 6c 4c 8h ] [ Ks ]
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $34 | Side pot 1: $13 | Rake: $2.45
Board: [ Jd 6c 4c 8h Ks ]
Me bet $23, collected $4.95, net -$18.05 (showed hand) [ Tc Ac ]
(high card ace)
McMizzle bet $18.05, collected $47, net +$28.95 (showed hand) [ Jh Js ]
(three of a kind, jacks)
arlacuesta lost $11.55 (showed hand) [ Jc Kc ] (two pair, kings and jacks)
-----------------------------------------------------

First, was I right to bet at the draw here?
Second, should I have folded to the big raise and not risk so many of my chips on a draw (save them for another hand)?
Third, was I right to push instead of just calling on the flop?

I am thinking now that I did it right but that was a lot of chips to loose in one hand for the level I am playing at.

(I didn't include the rake deduct in my pot addition but don't think it makes a difference here.)
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Old Sep 29, 2005, 7:31pm   #2
Ozone
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I would have said "cya" when arlacuesta made it $11.25 with a re-re-raise after the flop. You must realize you only had like $3 in the pot at that point, and you're needing to put in about another $10 to chase a flush draw against a clear set. I really hate flush draws when my opponent has a set.

I would have folded the flop. There are better spots...
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Old Sep 29, 2005, 7:56pm   #3
Dougikins
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I'm fine with the flop bet to define where your hands stands, but my problem is ... you asked the question, but didn't listen to the question. Two players told you that you were beat and they were going to make you pay to suck out. Fold to the first re-raise.
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Old Sep 29, 2005, 9:07pm   #4
AJS
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Ok, Thanks for the replys so far, but.... Didn't I have the pot odds to call/push this or is this not a pot odds question. Too much of a cost for a draw even if the odds are right? (That doesn't sound right.)

At the time of the decision it was:
Step A = $9.25 to call a $20.95 pot = 2-1 (if McMizzle would let me see the river for free which he wouldn't have.
Step B = $15.75 to push for a $47 pot (after rake) again = 2-1. (If McMizzle folded to my push I would have been back to step A for the odds).

I do agree with the drawing for a flush against a probable set issue. I had no way of knowing if McMizzle had the set but he definately had A,J or better. Alracuesta's huge raise could of meant anything from two pair to what it was, drawing dead to very thin for runner runner K,K. The clubs were my only outs and two were gone but no way of knowing that.

So is the drawing against a possible set the only issue here or am I still not getting it?
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Old Sep 29, 2005, 11:24pm   #5
Dougikins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJS
Ok, Thanks for the replys so far, but.... Didn't I have the pot odds to call/push this or is this not a pot odds question. Too much of a cost for a draw even if the odds are right? (That doesn't sound right.)

At the time of the decision it was:
Step A = $9.25 to call a $20.95 pot = 2-1 (if McMizzle would let me see the river for free which he wouldn't have.
Step B = $15.75 to push for a $47 pot (after rake) again = 2-1. (If McMizzle folded to my push I would have been back to step A for the odds).

I do agree with the drawing for a flush against a probable set issue. I had no way of knowing if McMizzle had the set but he definately had A,J or better. Alracuesta's huge raise could of meant anything from two pair to what it was, drawing dead to very thin for runner runner K,K. The clubs were my only outs and two were gone but no way of knowing that.

So is the drawing against a possible set the only issue here or am I still not getting it?
Remember, hitting your flush is 4-1 against on the turn, and 4-1 against on the river. If you could see both cards for one bet, then it becomes a 2-1 against, justifying your call. However, you had to call to see the turn, then call another bet to see the river. Even with implied odds, this isn't a profitable play.
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Old Sep 29, 2005, 11:51pm   #6
AJS
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Doug,

For some reason you and I are seeing this differently.
That was my point exactly. By going all in it was 2 - 1 whether or not McMizzle called. So the pot odds were there.

Drawing against a set?
Paying that much for a draw even if the odds are there?

These are the questions I am working on.
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Old Sep 30, 2005, 5:53am   #7
Dougikins
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You didn't call his raise, however, you pushed all-in, which kind of goes beyond a pot odds thing. Pot odds is normally how much you have to CALL to win X. So, therefore, if you had called there, it is likely you'd have to call another bet if you didn't hit after the turn.
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Old Sep 30, 2005, 6:30am   #8
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Um....

What are the odds of completing your flush draw?

Hint: not high enough to make 2-1 pot odds enticing enough to call.
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Old Sep 30, 2005, 6:35am   #9
Dougikins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hustlr
Um....

What are the odds of completing your flush draw?

Hint: not high enough to make 2-1 pot odds enticing enough to call.
Correct me if I'm wrong (because you're one of the best players on here), but to hit it on one street, it's a little over 4:1 against, yes?
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Old Sep 30, 2005, 12:17pm   #10
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Doug, if he's allin on the flop, how much is it going to cost him to see the river?
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