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Old Mar 30, 2006, 3:40pm   #1
Melon_Ruler
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Default I can dodge bullets, baby!

I've been playing online poker for over two years, and last night I did something I've never done before...

I folded KK preflop. Sure enough, just as I had suspected, my opponent had AA.

I'm sure you're initial reaction will be that I played the hand too timidly, but let me give you the details.

It was a Party Poker, Mini Step 1 tournament. It was the 6th hand of the tournament, and the guy I suspected of having the bullets had folded every previous hand. I had also folded every previous hand. With one limper, this tight player had raised 3x the BB. I suspected something right away, and reraised him 3x his bet, figuring that he would likely only rereraise a fellow tight player if he had AA. So, two callers and then he rereraises me to almost 3x my bet. I then fold my KK. Someone with AQ pushes which allows me to see that the other guy did in fact have the nuts.

So did I play it badly? Keep in mind, I'm not in the habit of folding KK preflop, and like I said, it's the first time I've ever done it. I just really felt as though he had AA. I ended up finishing 4th and getting a do-over instead of finishing 9th or 10th. Obviously it worked out, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a good decision. What are your thoughts?

Here's the hand history:

***** Hand History for Game 3849626997 *****
0/0 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 21512922) - Wed Mar 29 22:42:32 EST 2006
Table Mini Step 1 Search No More (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: larry881 (2060)
Seat 2: nTgrlnMLy (1940)
Seat 3: bnjoker (1800)
Seat 4: tradeya (1940)
Seat 5: tgun20 (1840)
Seat 6: TheBigBoss77 (1710)
Seat 7: Eyespy3 (2313)
Seat 8: dbake06 (2430)
Seat 9: djbena80 (1980)
Seat 10: DaleCoop14 (1987)
tgun20 posts small blind (20)
TheBigBoss77 posts big blind (40)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to nTgrlnMLy [ Kc, Ks ]
Eyespy3 folds.
dbake06 calls (40)
djbena80 raises (120) to 120
DaleCoop14 calls (120)
larry881 folds.
nTgrlnMLy raises (360) to 360
bnjoker folds.
tradeya folds.
tgun20 folds.
TheBigBoss77 calls (320)
dbake06 calls (320)
djbena80 raises (880) to 1000
DaleCoop14 folds.
nTgrlnMLy folds.
TheBigBoss77 raises (1350) to 1710
TheBigBoss77 is all-In.
dbake06 folds.
djbena80 calls (710)
Creating Main Pot with $4280 with TheBigBoss77
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5c, 7s, Qs ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2h ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 5d ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 4280 |
Board: [ 5c 7s Qs 2h 5d ]

larry881 balance 2060, didn't bet (folded)
nTgrlnMLy balance 1580, lost 360 (folded)
bnjoker balance 1800, didn't bet (folded)
tradeya balance 1940, didn't bet (folded)
tgun20 balance 1820, lost 20 (folded)
TheBigBoss77 balance 0, lost 1710 [ Qd Ac ] [ two pairs, queens and fives -- Ac,Qd,Qs,5c,5d ]
Eyespy3 balance 2313, didn't bet (folded)
dbake06 balance 2070, lost 360 (folded)
djbena80 balance 4550, bet 1710, collected 4280, net +2570 [ Ah Ad ] [ two pairs, aces and fives -- Ah,Ad,Qs,5c,5d ]
DaleCoop14 balance 1867, lost 120 (folded)
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Old Mar 30, 2006, 4:58pm   #2
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Excellent fold. I was in exactly the same position yesterday in a $25NL cash game. I didn't fold to the reraise as the voice in my head saying 'AA' was drowned by greedy impulses. Flop was KAx, (alarm bells ringing but I took no heed), lost a buyin - donk play. Well played sir. Hopefully I can put KK down in future.
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Old Mar 30, 2006, 7:14pm   #3
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very nice, i hope i hear my Spidey-Sense tingling the next time that happenes too.

Very nice lay down
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Old Mar 31, 2006, 1:37pm   #4
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Adding my note of congratulation - excellent lay-down in the circumstances of having seen only a few hands. Can I ask - did the prospect of this being a multi-way pot influence your decision?

The reason I ask is that 'the big boss' and 'dbake' have already shown signs of wanting to play by calling 2 substantial preflop raises, and either/both could call the 1k or push. I'm not great on the maths, but I would suspect that playing KK early tourny against a possible 3 others is madness. Getting out at a cost of only 320 here is a real result - how often to we forget to measure our success/failure to minimise losses?!
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Old Mar 31, 2006, 5:00pm   #5
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Thx everyone. I guess I did make the right play. I had just heard that many will say you should never lay down KK preflop.

As for Iestyn75's question:

'dbake06' had been playing very aggressively, and I believe he had seen every flop, raising most of the time. The fact that he tried to limp let me know I didn't have to be worried about him. If I recall correctly, 'TheBigBoss77' had called about a 4x the bb raise earlier, only to fold to a minimum or slightly more than minimum sized bet on the flop, so I knew he didn't necessarily have to have a huge hand to stick around despite the raising. He might have had something like AQ, (which he had), but he also might have had a fairly high pair like 99, and it wouldn't even have shocked me to see something like A4 or even suited connectors like 56 or TJ.

Now if 'djbena80' would have had something like QQ, he might have decided to push all in knowing there were extra chips in the pot from 'dbake06' and 'TheBigBoss77', and also knowing these guys probably didn't have too much either. That would force me to lean towards calling. However, I was just playing on the fact that if he realized that these other guys probably didn't have much, that he would probably also realize that I, (someone who had folded 5 straight hands, including when the blinds went through me), could quite possibly have AA or KK if he was holding QQ.

Basically, I had narrowed it down to AA or QQ, and I had assumed that he could just as easily have been dealt either but:

If he had AA, given the fact that there were others in there, he would have raised after my reraise close to 100% of the time.
If he had QQ, he might have called my reraise 50% of the time or so, and reraised me 50% of the time or so.

Therefore, if it was between AA and QQ, I figured there was about a 75% chance he had AA, since half the time someone in that position would have had QQ, they wouldn't have reraised.


I took a while to make the decision but ultimately I just decided that he likely either had AA or QQ, (possibly JJ or AK too I suppose), but that he was more likely to have the AA. Plus, his raise 3x mine seemed like the perfect amount to raise with AA to thin most of the field and build the pot, but also not scare everyone away too.


The moral of the story:

I'm glad I laid down the cowboys, and I do think I made a good play as opposed to a weak play that turned out good, but the planets would have to align pretty well for me to do it again.
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Old Mar 31, 2006, 6:55pm   #6
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I agree that it turned out to be a good laydown, and sometimes you just get a feeling and if that was the case more power too you. However, not playing 6 hands in a SnG is hardly a sign of being a tight play...I've seen people play no hands for the first two orbits then raise all in with AJs, 99, 10s ect. I hate to be the one who disagrees, but that early in a SnG unless I just have a epifany (sp?) saying he has AA I'm not folding those Kings right away. My feeling is that if I run into that so early in a SnG I can just start another one. In a MTT I might look at it differently. Just my 2 cents, however given the way it turned out, nice play.
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Old Apr 01, 2006, 6:26am   #7
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I mucked KK in a $100NL cash game preflop when I got re-reraised for $250 after I had only raised to about $15; some donkey called his raise after I folded; the donkey showed 8 4 offsuit or some such trash and the raiser showed QQ.

Needless to say I was furious at myself, especially when the board came K 8 9 9 2 or so.

Oh well can't be right all the time

PS: Great laydown!
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