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Old Apr 03, 2006, 8:12am   #1
b_money84
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Default What kinds of players call preflop bets with dominated hands

I mean I continue to see this day after day where players in NL ring games will call 5, 10, 15x BB raises preflop with hands like A6 (suited or not) or J7 and I can't understand how these players think.

I can relate to players playing with small suited connectors to an extent, I mean I wouldn't call a huge raise with them, but I certainly think they're more playable from a calling position compared to hands like A7 or whatever.

When someone makes a large raise preflop they're saying/implying that they have a strong hand, and except for bluffs, they usually do. Logic dictates that you should only call/raise if you think you have a stronger hand or a hand that has a solid chance of beating them (+EV).

Most of the time when someone raises, you get an instant list in your mind of what kinds of hands are raise-worthy that they may be playing; they include such things as AA through maybe 77/88 as well as strong aces or other face card combos. If the players XLAG obviously this list becomes a little more broad, but regardless...

For me, if I've limped in with A8 offsuit and get reraised I'm usually going to muck. I don't see A8 as being an exceptionally strong hand against most of the raise-worthy hands and acknowledge that even if I flop an Ace, my hand isn't going to be particularly valuable. Sure I could hope to flop trip 8s with it but that's a longshot.

So basically the only problem I'm having is understanding how these individuals actually think and how they decide to play hands like A7 offsuit after someone has opened the pot with a decent raise; they can't think that they're going into the pot with any kind of advantage. Although I guess when they hit a flop like 772 with A7 or a flop like 10.10.9 with 10 9 it only encourages them to play these kinds of hands more often...

/end of rant
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 8:46am   #2
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I know that feeling. Believe me, I've had enough great hands busted by someone playing absolute trash.
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 8:54am   #3
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Yah and I just want to know how these people are able to play these hands.

There are lots of times when I am on the BB with A3 diamonds and someone reraises to 6x BB and what do I do? Auto-muck, it's a trash hand against a raise and everyone should realize that. Do I feel like a dipshit when the flop comes 2 4 5 diamonds or 733? You bet I do, but I'm still not going to justify playing these crap hands so that I can extremely rarely catch a miracle flop...
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 9:17am   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b_money84
Yah and I just want to know how these people are able to play these hands.
Because they're stupid?

And I've run into that very situation. I don't know how many times I've had an okay but not great hand (like A 9 or something) that was overbet pre-flop, I folded, and I would have made a set if I'd stayed in.

It's not fun, I know. There are times I want to just smack some of these idiots for their calls and raises. However, I just try to focus on the big picture.

Although I did want to seriously smack this one idiot today...
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 2:38pm   #5
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The entire game of hold'em is not determined by your pre-flop play. This is especially true in ring games where players are adequately bankrolled and can take some longshots to score big. Instead of criticising their "stupidity" use it to your advantage, by getting all in pre flop. that way they dont have the odds(implied or pot) to call your bet and you take away their ability to outplay you. And honestly if you raise 10BB and i have a hand like 9Ts im probably going to call you every time, becuase if i hit big I know im getting your entire stack. This of course all depends on how much we both have in front of us, but the point is that you get to see 7 cards in hold'em not just 2.
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 3:28pm   #6
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ppl play cards to gamble.

why ppl gamble with marginal hands:
- to score big
- because they have enough money
- image polishing

what they think:
- no clue .. i personally think they dont. just see.. Ace.. or Suited.. CALL

If you move all-in to take out ppls odd/skill to outplay you must be even more prepared for the most unlucky flops.

like 40x BB all in with Queens called by A5 hitting a straight on the turn..

riiiight
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 3:45pm   #7
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Simplest answer to this question: The guys that have no clue and simply rely on that they can still suck out on you.
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 3:55pm   #8
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Micro-limit ring games are especially amusing.

Poker only really becomes a game of skill rather than luck when you can count on most of the table folding on any given hand. If everyone in the hand stays until the river regardless of bet sizes (and then folds when they are left with Jack high) then even AA looks a little dicey. If there is any kind of draw available on the board, you can bet someone is drawing to it.

Conventional wisdom seems to be... "if the game is loose, tighten up" but even this doesnt work when you have a table full of complete maniacs. After all, what are you tightening up to wait for, AA...KK? They arent going to beat 8 callers often enough to be profitable.

All you can do is play their game, draw every hand and hope for your share of luck but your odds wont be much different than blackjack basic strategy.

I just avoid these type of games.
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 4:03pm   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Poet
Micro-limit ring games are especially amusing.

Poker only really becomes a game of skill rather than luck when you can count on most of the table folding on any given hand. If everyone in the hand stays until the river regardless of bet sizes (and then folds when they are left with Jack high) then even AA looks a little dicey. If there is any kind of draw available on the board, you can bet someone is drawing to it.

Conventional wisdom seems to be... "if the game is loose, tighten up" but even this doesnt work when you have a table full of complete maniacs. After all, what are you tightening up to wait for, AA...KK? They arent going to beat 8 callers often enough to be profitable.

All you can do is play their game, draw every hand and hope for your share of luck but your odds wont be much different than blackjack basic strategy.

I just avoid these type of games.
haha, are you serious? There are plenty of posters on this forum that will disagree with you. AA, KK wont beat 8 callers enough to be profitable. Well thats just plain wrong.

There is a reason it is called conventional wisdom. You describe a loose table by saying everyone is a maniac, and the two are quite different. Instead of just writing off micro limits as "black jack" like expected value, maybe you should take some time to research the game, and find a strategy that works.

What are you going to do at a 10-20 game when 5 people see the flop everytime? go and play black jack?
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 7:07pm   #10
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Quote:
haha, are you serious? There are plenty of posters on this forum that will disagree with you. AA, KK wont beat 8 callers enough to be profitable. Well thats just plain wrong.
Yes, I am completely serious, but I am sure there are people that will disagree with me. Perhaps I should have said, "In my experience", although this was implied.

When you are playing at a table where you will get people calling any bet with any two suited cards it is very possible to be in situation where every suit is covered and any three cards of the same suit on the board will waste your high PP. Add to this people playing any two connectors and the odds of drawing out a straight, two 'rags' both pairing up etc etc and I stand by my assertion. Most of the poker books I have read make mention of the effect of 'schooling'. Another piece of 'conventional wisdom' is that you should raise big with a good hand, not just for value but to knock out as many players as possible because the value of your monster preflop hand decreases dramatically with each caller.

Quote:
What are you going to do at a 10-20 game when 5 people see the flop everytime? go and play black jack?
This situation is quite different (and, although my bankroll wont support these kind of stakes, I would imagine pretty rare). I would probably show players at these tables the respect of assuming they had a playable hand.

I mostly play $5, $10 and $20 SnGs and even on the lower end of the spectrum the play is quite reasonable, by the second orbit the table is usually down to 6 or 7 and people start playing poker.

I wonder if all the posters who would disagree with me would also disagree with the common assertion that the real poker in a rebuy tournament doesnt begin until the end of the rebuy period. Same reason. When the stakes aren't serious the game is quite different.
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