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Old Apr 03, 2006, 7:31pm   #11
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[quote="Digital Poet"]
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I wonder if all the posters who would disagree with me would also disagree with the common assertion that the real poker in a rebuy tournament doesnt begin until the end of the rebuy period. Same reason. When the stakes aren't serious the game is quite different.
I was going to post a long diatribe on why you are wrong - but I can't be bothered.

Let's just say that 'real' poker is adapting to each situation at any table so that you have the best opportunities. It isn't some theoretical situation where everyone plays 'correctly'.
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 7:58pm   #12
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I was going to post a long diatribe on why you are wrong - but I can't be bothered.
That's very helpful, thank you.

Sarcasm aside, I am entirely happy to be proved wrong, but "I know better, trust me" doesn't wash with me.

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Let's just say that 'real' poker is adapting to each situation at any table
So can I assume that you dont consider table selection a useful (profitable) skill? Do players select tables based purely on their own personal playing style (meaning that any table is profitable for the right kind of player) or are some tables inherenently unprofitable for any player? (That isn't rhetorical, I would be interested in opinions).
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 8:22pm   #13
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Holdem Hi: 501942 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ad 149526 29.79 351963 70.12 453 0.09 0.298
Qh Jh 77950 15.53 419966 83.67 4026 0.80 0.159
2c 2d 60838 12.12 440651 87.79 453 0.09 0.121
Ts 9c 41694 8.31 456481 90.94 3767 0.75 0.086
Ks 5s 48167 9.60 448343 89.32 5432 1.08 0.101
Jd 9d 54119 10.78 440483 87.76 7340 1.46 0.115
5c 4c 57329 11.42 439181 87.50 5432 1.08 0.119

heres an example that proves you wrong. with 7 people seeing the flop, every suit is covered, there are 3 connectors and a low PP. AA is still a profitable hand in this situation. You are getting 30% return on 15% investment. I know this is only one example, but trust me there are countless others.

As a response to your second question, Table selection is a tool that can help add to you BB/100, but being a great player isnt just choosing the games that you know you can already beat. It's finding a way to beat the games you cant beat yet.

I cant speak specifically as to what tables you are more comfortable playing at, but the goal is to be comfortable at any table. Whether its an aquarium, a rock garden, or an asylum. There are strategies for beating all different types of players and games, and by just dismissing a table full of maniacs as unbeatable is simply giving up.

Expopcorn is absolutly correct in his statement of adaptation. Disregarding your oppenents play simply so you can play "your" game is a huge mistake and is simply playing like a beginner.
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 9:05pm   #14
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Thank you very much.

This time without sarcasm, I can say that really was helpful.

I have to accept that perhaps extremely loose tables are not unbeatable just because I cannot beat them.

Still, having my decent hand beaten time and time again by some guy playing 42 suited definatly makes me feel like "Taking my ball and going home". The logical part of me is saying "This is exactly the kind of guy you can make money from" but by the third beat I've had enough.

A beginner though I am, but I dont have the money to throw around trying to beat games that i struggle with when there are those that I can consistantly profit from.

Once again, thanks for your insight and I apologise if I came across a little sharp before.
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 9:16pm   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Poet
So can I assume that you dont consider table selection a useful (profitable) skill? Do players select tables based purely on their own personal playing style (meaning that any table is profitable for the right kind of player) or are some tables inherenently unprofitable for any player? (That isn't rhetorical, I would be interested in opinions).
I think table selection is vitally important to a winning player. You should certainly pick tables which suit your own preferred style. However, you should limit yourself to tables at a suitable limit for your bankroll.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your post sounded like a typical 'I can't beat the bad players at low limits so I'd better move up and play better players' type post.

The 'schooling' effect means that players can call more often without it being a 'bad' play, but if you have the best hand they are also feeding your wins. You win less often, but win much more when you do win.

At low limits, variance is much higher and it takes longer to identify your win rate (at NL I would think you need at least 5-10k hands to get a decent estimate) but your long term winnings should be higher.

I didn't mean to sound sarcastic, but thinking that you will win more against better players at higher limits is fundamentally flawed.
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 11:06pm   #16
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Some good response here! I'll need to read through it more thoroughly when I have a bit more time.

I must admit that I did overlook a few things in my first post, such as was pointed out that there are people wealthy enough to play stakes where the money is almost meaningless. I mean if you make $250,000+ a year and you're playing 50 or 100NL, you are able throw money around on marginal (or stupid) calls much more easily I'm sure than someone who makes $50,000 a year, so I guess your tax bracket definitely factors in.

Understably as well, I've seen one reply saying that if I were to raise 10xBB, he would call me with 9 10s everytime. Like I said in my first post, I can relate to that a little more; playing suited connectors that is, because I can see the tremendous value if you hit -- and don't get me wrong, I have made these kinds of calls myself, where someone raises 6-8xBB with what I eventually find is AA or KK, and I call with 89 or 67 suited and flop 2 pair or a straight...

I ask that person though, if they would call my 10x BB raise with A7? Suited or unsuited, and why or why not. Because these are the kinds of calls I cannot understand. If it's a suited ace, MAYBE, I know there are some loose ones out there who live by the cardinal rule to play every suited ace (or sometimes king) they run across.

Still though, my train of thought is that if I'm sitting on the BB with A8 suited, sure I'll see a flop if its unraised, but if I get a guy raising it upto 8-10xBB, my odds of flopping a flush, or the cost of drawing to it if I hit 4 to the flush, doesn't offset the cost of calling the large reraise everytime I have a hand like this, and I wouldn't be able to give my ace any credit. Sure I make money off of suited aces or other rags from time to time, but not in pots where its going to be extremely expensive for me to get involved.

Again like I said, I understand your points about how if you do hit your miracle flop, you're going to break me when I'm holding my pocket aces, but is it really worth it to get involved with many raised pots with these bottom-of-the-barrel hands? Is it worth it in the long run? 'Cause I mean if it is, I'de like to know for my own benefit.
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Old Apr 03, 2006, 11:49pm   #17
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"i dont think so tim"

but temporarly and once i na while, it s a gamble to take.
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Old Apr 04, 2006, 2:39pm   #18
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Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Ah 1322321 77.22 384768 22.47 5215 0.30 0.774
9s 8s 384768 22.47 1322321 77.22 5215 0.30 0.226

I dont really need a miracle flop here.

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Ah 1388072 81.06 317694 18.55 6538 0.38 0.813
Ks Kc 317694 18.55 1388072 81.06 6538 0.38 0.187

but i bet you would call this is a heartbeat, i'm not saying i wouldn't, but if you're confident in your post flop play and you call with the 89s there you are actually in better shape than if you would've called with the kings. And finally

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Ah 1496266 87.38 193736 11.31 22302 1.30 0.880
As 7s 193736 11.31 1496266 87.38 22302 1.30 0.120

Still not in that bad of shape, and i think this is about the worst you can be preflop. but to answer your question, no i would not call a 10BB raise with A7s unless there were like 5 other callers.
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Old Apr 04, 2006, 7:42pm   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raaabh76
Holdem Hi: 501942 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ad 149526 29.79 351963 70.12 453 0.09 0.298
Qh Jh 77950 15.53 419966 83.67 4026 0.80 0.159
2c 2d 60838 12.12 440651 87.79 453 0.09 0.121
Ts 9c 41694 8.31 456481 90.94 3767 0.75 0.086
Ks 5s 48167 9.60 448343 89.32 5432 1.08 0.101
Jd 9d 54119 10.78 440483 87.76 7340 1.46 0.115
5c 4c 57329 11.42 439181 87.50 5432 1.08 0.119

heres an example that proves you wrong. with 7 people seeing the flop, every suit is covered, there are 3 connectors and a low PP. AA is still a profitable hand in this situation. You are getting 30% return on 15% investment. I know this is only one example, but trust me there are countless others.
Totally LMAO at you.
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Old Apr 04, 2006, 8:02pm   #20
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Obviously there are a many possible answers to your question, as to why someone may call with A7 against a preflop raise, and many answers have already been given. Here are a few:

1) The guy is an idiot.

I think this is really the answer you are fishing for and it is definitely a possibility. There are plenty of BAD players out there who will play any ace whether the pot is raised or not. Obviously you've taken some bad beats but what you HAVE to keep telling yourself is that you WANT the guy to call with A7 when you have AK. In the long run, you should make money against this guy, especially if you are confident in your post flop skills. But that brings me to the next point:

2) The guy feels that he can outplay you on the flop

If, based on what he has seen from you, he thinks he can outplay you on the flop, then the cards become more meaningless. If he has position on you and knows that you will always for example C-Bet the flop, then check the turn if you have unimproved overcards, then maybe a well timed bet will take the pot away from you. Or,

3) He is hoping to flop a monster because he knows he can take your stack.

If he reads you as a player that has a tight starting hand selection that will live or die with his hole cards, he may feel that it is worth the 3-4x BB raise to call you, just to take your whole stack. If you have KK, and he has A7, he knows that you will keep pushing and pushing on a flop of 772. Or if you have AK and he has A7, he knows he could get your whole stack on a flop of A 7 3 rainbow. However unlikely that miracle flop may be, he may feel that the implied odds make it worth splashing around a bit to potentially win big. Not to say that A7 is the best hand to try that with, but you get the idea.

4) He may be trying to establish an image.

Many players try to set themselves up early on as the "calling station" at the table. This tends to make other players either make BIG overbets or just stop trying to bluff at all and become very timid because, "who knows what garbage this guy could be playing." I played with a guy recently at a SH NL100 table that saw 85% of all flops (many of which were raised pots), and he almost always bet $1 on the flop regardless of pot size and regardless of whether or not he had anything. He'd call big reraises and often went to the river. He didn't make a killing (he slowly bled his stack away actually) but he completely changed the dynamic of the table. I loved having him around, but at least one player went on tilt and lost most of his stack, much of it to the "calling station".


Now I am not trying to suggest that people calling preflop raise with Axo are geniuses, I am just saying that we can't do anything about the idiots out there that occasionally get lucky, and we certainly DON'T WANT them to go anywhere. All we can do is work on our own game to try and beat these other guys who just may have a method to their madness.
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