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Old Apr 04, 2006, 8:07pm   #21
raaabh76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmytrick
Quote:
Originally Posted by raaabh76
Holdem Hi: 501942 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ad 149526 29.79 351963 70.12 453 0.09 0.298
Qh Jh 77950 15.53 419966 83.67 4026 0.80 0.159
2c 2d 60838 12.12 440651 87.79 453 0.09 0.121
Ts 9c 41694 8.31 456481 90.94 3767 0.75 0.086
Ks 5s 48167 9.60 448343 89.32 5432 1.08 0.101
Jd 9d 54119 10.78 440483 87.76 7340 1.46 0.115
5c 4c 57329 11.42 439181 87.50 5432 1.08 0.119

heres an example that proves you wrong. with 7 people seeing the flop, every suit is covered, there are 3 connectors and a low PP. AA is still a profitable hand in this situation. You are getting 30% return on 15% investment. I know this is only one example, but trust me there are countless others.
Totally LMAO at you.

I guess i worded that incorrectly, in the long run you will recieve 30% of the total pre-flop pot while only contributing 15%. Or are you refuting the profitability of AA 7 handed.
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Old Apr 11, 2006, 9:46pm   #22
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Catfish, after reading your post I think you hit the nail on the head (in my mind).

Specifically when you said
Quote:
If you have KK, and he has A7, he knows that you will keep pushing and pushing on a flop of 772. Or if you have AK and he has A7, he knows he could get your whole stack on a flop of A 7 3 rainbow.
I don't think I play overly poorly or am a maniac by any means; but often I can't get away from this kind of situation. As to why; I think it's because often I'll refuse to believe anyone can be holding a 7, in the case of the 772 flop, when I've reraised the pot preflop. Obviously this is my mistake, since anyone can be playing any 2 cards and as has been pointed out here, this is just why they may play any 2 cards.

Same with the AK on a A 7 3, again I would have trouble believing anyone would be holding A7/A3/73 if I had reraised preflop, because for the most part, my mentality is to muck A7/A3 against a raise, since the only time my hand is going to be any good is when the board gives me a set other than an A or two pair.

In some of the examples posted with win % probability; I wouldn't want to put my money on a hand in a heads up situation where I'm going to have just a 10-20% chance to win... It would theoretically take me 5-10 attempts just to win one pot, and the chance of that one win offsetting the cost me calling 5-10 preflop raises to see a flop is, I think, slim.
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Old May 04, 2006, 7:52pm   #23
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Default Re: What kinds of players call preflop bets with dominated h

Quote:
Originally Posted by b_money84
I mean I continue to see this day after day where players in NL ring games will call 5, 10, 15x BB raises preflop with hands like A6 (suited or not) or J7 and I can't understand how these players think.

I can relate to players playing with small suited connectors to an extent, I mean I wouldn't call a huge raise with them, but I certainly think they're more playable from a calling position compared to hands like A7 or whatever.

When someone makes a large raise preflop they're saying/implying that they have a strong hand, and except for bluffs, they usually do. Logic dictates that you should only call/raise if you think you have a stronger hand or a hand that has a solid chance of beating them (+EV).

Most of the time when someone raises, you get an instant list in your mind of what kinds of hands are raise-worthy that they may be playing; they include such things as AA through maybe 77/88 as well as strong aces or other face card combos. If the players XLAG obviously this list becomes a little more broad, but regardless...

For me, if I've limped in with A8 offsuit and get reraised I'm usually going to muck. I don't see A8 as being an exceptionally strong hand against most of the raise-worthy hands and acknowledge that even if I flop an Ace, my hand isn't going to be particularly valuable. Sure I could hope to flop trip 8s with it but that's a longshot.

So basically the only problem I'm having is understanding how these individuals actually think and how they decide to play hands like A7 offsuit after someone has opened the pot with a decent raise; they can't think that they're going into the pot with any kind of advantage. Although I guess when they hit a flop like 772 with A7 or a flop like 10.10.9 with 10 9 it only encourages them to play these kinds of hands more often...

/end of rant




what's wrong with playing with stupid hands? they win bigger pots than hands like kj qk aq.


but it depends who your up against. If you put your opponent on a strong strong hand say kk/aa, and you know he cannot fold these type of hands and your both pretty deep stacked, why not call with 2,3. If you flop anything twopair or bigger, you can take his stack out in one shot. And plus these types of hands are deceptive and hide their strength nicely.

Say you we're holding AA, and the flop came 2,2,5, how can you possible put someone on a two. So if you came in with 2,3, and have a very terrible loose blffn style image at the table, throw in a big raise on the flop to make it look like your trying to steal, then aces will fire back at you.......then, we'll you doubnle up

But of course, again, it depends who your playing against, if your up against someone capable of folded a pair of kings on a low flop, or someone that's got a pretty good read on you, then don't try this on them.
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Old May 05, 2006, 3:30pm   #24
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JUST WHAT CAN HAPPEN:

Yesterday I played 45 Player NL/Holdem.

Final Table (!) Limit was at 200/400 I think...

Sitting on the button with QhQc.
One early Hand with a bit larger stack than mine called.
Raised 1200.
SB and BB fold, call by "the one"...

Flop: Qd 7s 3c

He bets 800.
Raise him 2000.
He raises All-in... I had to call (didn´t I)...
so I went all-in with my lovely ladies.

He opens his cards and:

Js 7s

come on?!

What happened was, that he got a flush and threw me out...

Remembering it was the final table, I didn´t expect to see J7s for all-in and being lucky at turn and river....
Or did I act wrong?! Should I´ve gone all-in preflop?! My stack was in mid-position...

Frustrated and my evening beer drinking, I wanted to watch the end of the final table. After being very tight, he raised all-in preflop on the button and got called by BB.
He got 33. BB got AA...maybe I don´t have to tell you that, but of course he won with triple 3 on the river....after that I didn´t continue watching or playing.

Maybe it´s just that you can´t beat luck...
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Old May 05, 2006, 3:59pm   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lichtecho

Flop: Qd 7s 3c

He bets 800.
Raise him 2000.
He raises All-in... I had to call (didn´t I)...
so I went all-in with my lovely ladies.

He opens his cards and:

Js 7s

come on?!

What happened was, that he got a flush and threw me out...
Well THAT was obviously rigged.
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Old May 05, 2006, 8:06pm   #26
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Sorry, wasn´t quite sure, had this 7s in mind....:/
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Old May 16, 2006, 8:08pm   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catfish88
3) He is hoping to flop a monster because he knows he can take your stack.

If he reads you as a player that has a tight starting hand selection that will live or die with his hole cards, he may feel that it is worth the 3-4x BB raise to call you, just to take your whole stack. If you have KK, and he has A7, he knows that you will keep pushing and pushing on a flop of 772. Or if you have AK and he has A7, he knows he could get your whole stack on a flop of A 7 3 rainbow. However unlikely that miracle flop may be, he may feel that the implied odds make it worth splashing around a bit to potentially win big. Not to say that A7 is the best hand to try that with, but you get the idea.

.
i think i just saw a flaw here in my game. (one of many )

Catfish, this was a damn good contribution
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Old Jul 12, 2006, 11:25am   #28
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I feel you on that one.
But worse than these callers are in my opinion people who raise (!) with A7o, K5o or other crap.
In the low limit games I really fear those people. If the flop comes 7 K 2 and you hold KQ or AK you can bet someone's having K2 and is going to win the hand...
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Old Jul 12, 2006, 2:08pm   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseMC
I feel you on that one.
But worse than these callers are in my opinion people who raise (!) with A7o, K5o or other crap.
In the low limit games I really fear those people. If the flop comes 7 K 2 and you hold KQ or AK you can bet someone's having K2 and is going to win the hand...
Those raisers could easily be experienced players who know they can outplay you postflop no matter what hand. Don't ever assume anything.
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Old Jul 12, 2006, 5:47pm   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KHSPoker21
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseMC
I feel you on that one.
But worse than these callers are in my opinion people who raise (!) with A7o, K5o or other crap.
In the low limit games I really fear those people. If the flop comes 7 K 2 and you hold KQ or AK you can bet someone's having K2 and is going to win the hand...
Those raisers could easily be experienced players who know they can outplay you postflop no matter what hand. Don't ever assume anything.
in a 1cent/2cent game?
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