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Old Aug 15, 2006, 8:53pm   #1
rickey
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Default Top Set, 3-way, Very Deep Stacked

I posted this is the "Stories" section, so if you read it you know the outcome. But the play I made has been bothering me. I played the way I did because I didn't know what to do but, I wasn't folding.

It's really the stack sizes that confused me. With ~100BB stacks I have no problems in this situation, but I had a 200+ BB stack and one of my opponents had me covered. The way the action played out I figured one opponent for a flush draw and the other for a set (don't know which had which, its just what I was thinking).

As far as reads, the SB was calling every PF raise I made and the BB was fairly tight.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($9.70)
BB ($28.30)
UTG ($22.90)
MP ($9.50)
CO ($7.10)
Hero ($21.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q.
2 folds, CO calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.5, SB calls $0.45, BB calls $0.40, CO folds.

Flop: ($1.60) Q, 6, 9 (3 players)
SB bets $0.2, BB raises to $1, Hero raises to $19.85

How can I play this?

Last edited by rickey; Aug 15, 2006 at 9:01pm.
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Old Aug 15, 2006, 10:38pm   #2
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From the thread title I thought this was going to be a tourney hand. I'm not sure why you'd want to play this hand differently in a cash game if you had more or less money at the table, it's not like you can't reload.

Anyway, on the flop you definitely have the best hand and thus you want to get more money into the pot without giving someone the odds to draw to a flush. I'm reraising to around $4-5 here.
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Old Aug 16, 2006, 12:01am   #3
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Id make a pot + sized raise here due to the drawheavy nature of this board (8 10, 8 7, JT, and/or spades have at least 8 outs here to chase, and 2 players with interest in the pot). You need to raise to $4+ here, due to the amount of possible draws out there.
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Old Aug 16, 2006, 5:03am   #4
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Badsastard, stack size has a very important impact on play in cash games because of implied odds and it should change the way you play hands. When effective stacks are 100BB or less one can often simply get all the money in on the flop or turn whereas that is not generally the case when playing deep. The shorter the stacks, the easier decisions are.

As far as the hand in question, I raise to $5 on flop. You said BB is a tight player so it is unlikely he holds 78 of spades or TJ of spades OOP. The SB is a loose player and his flop bet is incredibly weak so I'm not too concerned about him either. Raising to $5 will likely knock at least one of the players out if not take it down right then and there.
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Old Aug 16, 2006, 3:20pm   #5
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I think raising to 5$ is the textbook way to play that hand, and then getting your money in on a blank turn. You having position in this hand is very nice in my opinion.

Then again, you are so much ahead in this hand, the worst you could be up against would be 8s 7s, and you're ahead even of this OESFD. A lot of players at NL10 downloaded the version without the fold button, so if you are reasonably sure you will get called here, this AI move is great. Continue playing like this.
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Old Aug 16, 2006, 6:26pm   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thespoil View Post
Badsastard, stack size has a very important impact on play in cash games because of implied odds and it should change the way you play hands. When effective stacks are 100BB or less one can often simply get all the money in on the flop or turn whereas that is not generally the case when playing deep. The shorter the stacks, the easier decisions are.
I'm aware of the concept of implied odds and the effect stack size can have in differing situations(at least I thought I was). Are you saying that if Rickey had been 100BB deep the potsize raise is not the best play? I'm a little confused about this.
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Old Aug 16, 2006, 8:19pm   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badsastard View Post
I'm aware of the concept of implied odds and the effect stack size can have in differing situations(at least I thought I was). Are you saying that if Rickey had been 100BB deep the potsize raise is not the best play? I'm a little confused about this.
That's precisely what I'm saying. If I start this hand with only $10 here I'm pushing the flop every time.

When 200BB deep pushing the flop risks the maximum to win what is a fairly small pot and if we're called we cannot win without our hand holding up. By raising to ~5 we should fold out at least one of our opponents and it keeps the pot smaller. If the SB is going to continue with his hand he's likely pushing after our flop raise and of course we're calling. Based on rickey's description of the BB if he pushes the flop after our raise it's more likely he has an underset and not one of the big combo draws. If BB calls we can get the money in on a non-scary turn. If BB calls and a scary card hits the turn keeping the pot small on the flop gives us more options. When the scare card hits and BB checks we can check behind with a decent number of outs to fill up. This may also induce our opponent to bluff the river, and though I think that's somewhat less likely vs. this opponent, if we decide to call we won't usually be risking our whole stack.

When the scare card hits and BB leads into us his bet will often be small enough that we can call and try to fill up on the river. In all the instances where a scare cards hits the turn playing pot control will often let us see the river cheaply and will win us 200+BB every time we fill up except on the rare occasion our opponent makes a straight flush, quads, or will get away from a flush.
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Old Aug 16, 2006, 8:35pm   #8
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thespoil, great post!

Thanks for the replies, guys.
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Old Aug 17, 2006, 7:48pm   #9
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I'm not sure if I've got my Poker brain switched on today but I still don't agree with pushing $10 into a pot of $2.80 with top set despite reading your (thespoil's) post numerous times. Only someone with another set (extremely unlikely) or an idiot (as in the HH) is going to call an AI as you are virtually announcing to the table that you have a set. IMO to extract max value from a big hand you need to be a bit more subtle and not scare people away with huge overbets whatever your stack unless your image is that of a maniac. For any player with a clue in the BB shoes this should be an easy laydown if Rickey pushes his last $10 nevermind $20 into the pot.

If I've missed the point my apologies.
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Old Aug 17, 2006, 7:51pm   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badsastard View Post
...or an idiot...
...any player with a clue...
I think you got the point. Why try to extract, if the average moron is gonna call a push anyway?
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