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Old Sep 01, 2006, 2:00pm   #1
rcb17
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Last night I was playing in a NL ring game on WorldPx, and to steal from someone (MRVegas I think?) signature, I folded more times than a caffienated oragami artist. Literally until this hand I had VPIP'ed twice in the previous 50+ hands, and neither of those two made it to the flop (took down the blinds only). I was stone cold on cards, but had clearly been showing a tight image.

So this hand comes along. Though I was also playing a FL game as well, I had been watching and the guy I went up against had been betting aggressively a lot and winning pots on the flop or turn and not showing cards. I have not hooked in PT to the WorldPx tables (too much of a pain to do it) so I was relying on my own reads for all this.

***** Hand history (v1.1) *****
Hand ID 55546822
0.25/0.50 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - GMT Fri Sep 1 03:20:49 2006
Table 'Take Out', 10 seats max, not started, Real money, Money game
Seat 5 is the button. SmallBlind 0.10, BigBlind 0.25
Note: seat IDs range from 0 to 9
Seat 0 (playing): JacobB (149680), amount $23.75, amount bet $0.00, penalty (None)
Seat 1 (playing): weehee (169193), amount $49.10, amount bet $0.00, penalty (None)
Seat 2 (playing): hvd (162986), amount $14.65, amount bet $0.00, penalty (None)
Seat 3 (playing): BackLikeCookedCrack (16586, amount $40.32, amount bet $0.00, penalty (None)
Seat 4 (playing): rcb17 (181316), amount $18.30, amount bet $0.00, penalty (None)
Seat 5 (playing): kljimage (168783), amount $39.72, amount bet $0.00, penalty (None)
Seat 6 (playing): metsnfinsfan (156895), amount $16.83, amount bet $0.00, penalty (None)
Seat 8 (playing): HRPuffenstuff (164064), amount $36.04, amount bet $0.00, penalty (None)
Seat 9 (playing): iPwn (189850), amount $23.08, amount bet $0.00, penalty (None)
metsnfinsfan: Small Blind ($0.10)
HRPuffenstuff: Big Blind ($0.25)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to rcb17: [ Ah Kh ]
iPwn: Call ($0.25)
JacobB: Fold ($0.00)
weehee: Fold ($0.00)
hvd: Fold ($0.00)
BackLikeCookedCrack: Fold ($0.00)
Player gangsta75 (184941) joined table on seat 7 with an amount of $14.94
rcb17: Raise ($1.00)
kljimage: Fold ($0.00)
metsnfinsfan: Fold ($0.00)
HRPuffenstuff: Call ($0.75)
iPwn: Call ($0.75)
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [ Kc Ts 5s ]
HRPuffenstuff: Check ($0.00)
iPwn: Check ($0.00)
rcb17: Bet ($1.00)
HRPuffenstuff: Raise ($4.00)
iPwn: Fold ($0.00)
rcb17: Call ($3.00)
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [ Td ]
HRPuffenstuff: Bet ($8.00)
rcb17: Raise ($13.30)
HRPuffenstuff: Call ($5.30)
** Dealing River **
Community cards: [ 8d ]
** End Round **
** Evaluate **
HRPuffenstuff: Show Cards ($0.00)
rcb17: Show Cards ($0.00)
** Showdown **
Main pot $35.85, Rake $1.85
Summary rcb17: bet $18.30, won $35.85, net +$17.55, HoleCards [ Ah Kh ], HiHand [two pairs, kings and tens][ Kh Kc Ts Td Ah ], won $35.85 from main pot
Summary HRPuffenstuff: bet $18.30, won $0.00, net -$18.30, HoleCards [ 7s 8s ], HiHand [two pairs, tens and eights][ Ts Td 8s 8d Kc ]

Had I not seen him pushing all the time, I might have folded on the turn. Based on that though, I did not believe he had a 10 or trips 8's or 5's (one would want to slowplay those in my mind), I thought maybe ace-high, a king, or a draw. Either way looking back I see it was a risky call as I had very little to improve my hand if he was ahead of me.

When I asked him why would he go all the way on a flush draw, his answer was "fold equity". This only made partial sense to me. I could see it for the flop raise. But once I called, and especailly once I reraised him on the turn, and since I had been super tight (and he had ben there the whole time too) that argument pretty much flies out the window doesn't it?

So, was it a valid reasoning on his part, and how good/bad a play was it on my part?
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Old Sep 05, 2006, 2:29pm   #2
realyreal
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What's up rcb? So you're multitabling 50NL and playing a limit game on the side? Nice stuff, hope things are going well for you, man. I'm playing 50NL as well.

Yeah, I agree that his pot-sized re-raise on the flop was intended to have high fold equity. He wanted TPTK (your hand) and any draws to fold. He was representing a set, so only another set, or TPTK with a good draw, could call. In a lot of situations, I would have folded your TPTK to a pot-sized re-raise, too.

The problem with his semi-bluff was that you just didn't buy it, and for good reason. The flop was fairly ragged --there were no flush or straight possibilities, and two pair was also unlikely, given what happened before the flop. The only scary holdings would be 55, TT, and maybe KK or AA (though he may have re-raised pre-flop with AA, KK, or even TT, if he was a consistently aggressive+ player). Plus, you knew he was prone to bluffing.

I do think that your bet on the flop (1/3 of the pot) was small, and may have encouraged him to bluff at you, which put you in a tough position. It also gave him the opportunity to call with his 8-high flush draw with pretty decent odds. I like to bet a bet more in this situation with TPTK (maybe 3/4 of the pot), to find out a bit more about where the opponent is at, and to avoid giving my opponent a chance to make a move on me unless he has a monster.

When he put another big bet in on the turn, I'd be pretty worried he had me beat. At this point, only a good read would allow me to call or push, and it looks like you must have had one. I try to avoid playing big pots like these with just TPTK, because I'm often up against 2 pair or better, but that's just me -- maybe others have different thoughts here.

Anyway, I do think his flop bet had high fold equity. I agree that by calling, you indicated that you may have hit a set yourself, or at least, you've indicated that you're willing to call a pot-sized bet with your current hand. So, his turn bet was a last-ditch effort at a bluff, but given your call on the turn, it was unlikely to work. It was also a smaller bet, relative to the pot, so it had less fold equity than his first bet, since it would get fewer hands to fold.

Your re-raise on the turn does not affect the fold equity of his own bets, but It does indicate that you believe your hand is the winner. Your final bet does not have enough fold equity to even get a flush draw to fold -- calling a $5 bet into a $32 pot gives any flush draw correct pot odds. So, he really can't interpret your re-raise as a steal attempt, and must assume that you believe you have the best hand, getting all your chips in the pot. Still, he was correct to call if he believes improving to an 8-high flush will win the pot, so he also made the right move by calling on the turn.

So, my one major comment is that I would have bet more on the flop, to see where he's at, and to control the pot size. He may have folded to a bigger bet, and you'd have taken down a decent pot, avoiding the danger of getting outdrawn. He may have called, indicating a drawing hand, and probably would not have followed up with a big bluff when his flush didn't hit, fearing you had him beat. This would have allowed you to control the pot size a bit more. And if he re-raised your bigger bet on the turn, you would probably have to fold, but at least you'd be pretty confident that he's got a monster, and not just a semi-bluffing hand.

Interested to know what you think.
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Old Sep 05, 2006, 3:55pm   #3
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Thanks for the reply. First off, I was just playing one 50NL table and one FL table. I'm not insane!!

Secondly, I agree with your assertion on the flop bet. It's been a while since that hand, but I think I was trying to not get the pot taken down too fast, as at the time I felt I had a the best hand precisely because nobody reraised on the preflop betting stage.

Looking back again, I do need to get more aggressive when there is the possibility of a 4-flush sitting out there after the flop. I did give him the right odds to call that. Just one of many holes in my game it seems.
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Old Sep 05, 2006, 6:07pm   #4
realyreal
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Cool deal. I know your'e not insane, just playing with ya ;)

I forgot to mention that since there were two players besides yourself at the flop, it becomes even more valuable to put in a bigger raise. If the first guy had just called your 1/3 pot bet, then the second guy would be getting great odds to call, and you'd find yourself up against two (probably drawing hands) while holding a hand that's not likely to improve after the flop. Anyway, that's just been my strategy lately, so just sharing my thoughts...I'm also new to poker as of this year. Good luck!
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