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Old Sep 06, 2006, 7:19pm   #11
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No sir. I said not to be willing to play for stacks without 2 pair or better. I did not mean to imply that you should pass on good opportunities to get the dOnk's chips. At this level I'll go broke on that.

Would you of folded AK or KQ there? I guess from your post the answer is yes, but isnt AK as good as your hand I mean what on that flop beats AK, but loses to your hand?
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Old Sep 06, 2006, 7:24pm   #12
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If AK pairs it requires your opponent to have AA or two pair or better to beat you. So saying that the flop comes A74 rainbow it is really hard in a single table to want to get rid of the AK because this is a great spot to try and double up. Are you beat sometimes? yes, but on the flop here these are few and pretty far between.
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Old Sep 08, 2006, 12:34pm   #13
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If AK pairs it requires your opponent to have AA or two pair or better to beat you. So saying that the flop comes A74 rainbow it is really hard in a single table to want to get rid of the AK because this is a great spot to try and double up. Are you beat sometimes? yes, but on the flop here these are few and pretty far between.

So situation...you've got AK in MP in a standard low buyin Stars S&G. Blinds are 15/30. You raise to 90 and only the BB calls. You and your opponent have equal stacks, both pretty close to starting.

Flop comes A 7 4 rainbow

BB checks to you, you bet out 2/3 pot -> pot and BB check-raises you all in. Are you letting go?

Do you let go if it's A 7 4 with 2 clubs? (You're not suited)
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Old Sep 08, 2006, 1:09pm   #14
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So situation...you've got AK in MP in a standard low buyin Stars S&G. Blinds are 15/30. You raise to 90 and only the BB calls. You and your opponent have equal stacks, both pretty close to starting.

Flop comes A 7 4 rainbow

BB checks to you, you bet out 2/3 pot -> pot and BB check-raises you all in. Are you letting go?

Do you let go if it's A 7 4 with 2 clubs? (You're not suited)
No I call in both spots. To crazy to lay down here he could do this with any ace.
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obviously, it's always my fault whenever anyone does anything stupid around here.

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Old Sep 08, 2006, 1:15pm   #15
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I'm not that bothered by the two clubs on the board. If he's got a flush draw, I'm ahead even if he has the Ac. It also means he can't have two pair or a set, the hands that I'm scared of here. If I've seen the guy check-raise AI on a draw, I wouldn't mind calling.
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Old Sep 08, 2006, 1:41pm   #16
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Originally Posted by Boomer2k6 View Post
So situation...you've got AK in MP in a standard low buyin Stars S&G. Blinds are 15/30. You raise to 90 and only the BB calls. You and your opponent have equal stacks, both pretty close to starting.

Flop comes A 7 4 rainbow

BB checks to you, you bet out 2/3 pot -> pot and BB check-raises you all in. Are you letting go?

Do you let go if it's A 7 4 with 2 clubs? (You're not suited)
The point I have been trying to make, but haven't, is this. In the early stages of a low buy in SNG, you have no reads unless you happen to have played with some of the players before. This makes it impossible to put players on a range of hands. You can expect 2-3 complete dOnks to be at the table but you don't know who they are.

Harrington likes to point out that dangerous players are those who can be playing any two cards. Of course, he meant this to apply to players like Daniel N. or Gus Hanson, but the dOnks are no less dangerous even if they are bad.

In your examples the push is fishy and I would suspect a donk but would have no way to know if he has 74, AQ or less, a set, or, in the second example, a draw. You might as well flip a coin. It could be a solid player pushing a hand that beats you rather than playing it standard on his suspicion that you might be a dOnk and willing to call a sucker bet. Get the image of two sharks circling each other both thinking the other is dinner?

My solution to this problem is to play uber tight early and read the table. The dOnks almost always give themselves away during the first two or three orbits and that information is critical. So what if someone else gets the dOnk's money. It's not going anywhere and I believe I am good enough to win as long as I have chips.

While the dOnks almost always lose, they often take players out before they do. Why get involved until you know the lay of the land?

You can say, most of the time my AK is good. Fine. You can also say, odds are, I can close my eyes and walk across this minefield. Odds are you will be fine 60% of the time. But...BOOM!

We should strive to approach the game in a professional manner and a pro crosses the minefield with eyes open and uses all the information he can to get safely across.

Another way to put it is, two bulls are on a hill and spot a herd of cows down below. The young bull says lets run down there and **** a couple of those cows. The old bull says, lets walk down and **** them all.

If your AK is good there 2/3 of the time you still bust out early 1/3 and we are shooting for making the money 40-50% of the time. I can get chips without showing my hand well enough to be able to pass on this and still do fine. I don't want to play for stacks first three orbits with less than two pair. Thats my rule of thumb and, exceptions aside, I think it works.
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Old Sep 08, 2006, 2:30pm   #17
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The point I have been trying to make, but haven't, is this. In the early stages of a low buy in SNG, you have no reads unless you happen to have played with some of the players before. This makes it impossible to put players on a range of hands. You can expect 2-3 complete dOnks to be at the table but you don't know who they are.

Harrington likes to point out that dangerous players are those who can be playing any two cards. Of course, he meant this to apply to players like Daniel N. or Gus Hanson, but the dOnks are no less dangerous even if they are bad.

In your examples the push is fishy and I would suspect a donk but would have no way to know if he has 74, AQ or less, a set, or, in the second example, a draw. You might as well flip a coin. It could be a solid player pushing a hand that beats you rather than playing it standard on his suspicion that you might be a dOnk and willing to call a sucker bet. Get the image of two sharks circling each other both thinking the other is dinner?

My solution to this problem is to play uber tight early and read the table. The dOnks almost always give themselves away during the first two or three orbits and that information is critical. So what if someone else gets the dOnk's money. It's not going anywhere and I believe I am good enough to win as long as I have chips.

While the dOnks almost always lose, they often take players out before they do. Why get involved until you know the lay of the land?

You can say, most of the time my AK is good. Fine. You can also say, odds are, I can close my eyes and walk across this minefield. Odds are you will be fine 60% of the time. But...BOOM!

We should strive to approach the game in a professional manner and a pro crosses the minefield with eyes open and uses all the information he can to get safely across.

Another way to put it is, two bulls are on a hill and spot a herd of cows down below. The young bull says lets run down there and **** a couple of those cows. The old bull says, lets walk down and **** them all.

If your AK is good there 2/3 of the time you still bust out early 1/3 and we are shooting for making the money 40-50% of the time. I can get chips without showing my hand well enough to be able to pass on this and still do fine. I don't want to play for stacks first three orbits with less than two pair. Thats my rule of thumb and, exceptions aside, I think it works.

The thing I am having a hard time with here is you would call with 74 but fold AK I think of them as the same hand in this situation. Also you can throw out a set they get slow played at this level and A7 would reraise but not AI. That really narrows it down to A4, 47, and a bunch of hands I have drawing real slim ex. 88+ and A2+. Call you are not flipping a coin here I would say 80-85% of the time you are way ahead (about the same as 47).
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obviously, it's always my fault whenever anyone does anything stupid around here.

fucking morons every one of you. there isn't a man in this village that i wouldn't feed into an incinerator for no reason other than to get rid of them.

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Old Sep 08, 2006, 3:24pm   #18
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Well Jimmy I understand your what you are saying quite well, and it makes a lot of sense.

Thanks to one of hustlrs videos, he said something along the lines of "I don't need to be invloved in that pot" and folds an above average hand becuase he just didn't need to get in there and risk chips needlessly.

Once again when first out happened It was a horrific bad beat, by which I mean runner runner to my top 2 pair or better hand.

I am quite capable of even folding pock rockets on a really scary board with raises, re-raises, and re-re-raises ;) before it gets around to me, in the early stages.

I've been on a big upswing again the last few days (similar to the success I was having when I first thought I found the right games to play).

The biggest alteration I have made to my playing style in the early/mid levels is to try and not push allin with a hand when I think I am way ahead. I have made my bets large enough to handsomely reward my winning hand, but not cripple me to the "lucky catch(s)".

I actually feel good about my game when I am playing the SnG's I play , and even if I only have enough of a stack to survive an orbit or two of blinds then I feel like I still have a chance to win

Actually I have done that a few times where I won a small pot in the first hand and found myself on the losing end of an all in battle, and only left with 60 in chips.

I rarely will push/call allin before the flop against an unknown player unless AA/KK are in my hand. It's not only the luck of the cards then it is the luck of your read on the player
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Old Sep 08, 2006, 4:59pm   #19
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Ace, I will by God respond to you in full later when I have the time.

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Old Sep 08, 2006, 8:34pm   #20
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Ace, I will by God respond to you in full later when I have the time.


As always I look forward to it. Just to be clear, all I ma saying is if you are going to fold AK on these flops you should fold 47, and if you are going to call with 47 you should call with AK. Your up....
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obviously, it's always my fault whenever anyone does anything stupid around here.

fucking morons every one of you. there isn't a man in this village that i wouldn't feed into an incinerator for no reason other than to get rid of them.

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