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Old Sep 15, 2006, 11:10am   #1
Got 6 Aces
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Default Push/Fold mistake?

Table '31512948 12' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: MistryKid (34171 in chips)
Seat 2: StvBos (16950 in chips)
Seat 3: The Kronzs (90001 in chips)
Seat 4: luisfran (18100 in chips)
Seat 5: Tegen (32708 in chips)
Seat 6: got 6 aces (24971 in chips)
Seat 7: neilfrikn (36796 in chips)
Seat 8: jsmythib (28495 in chips)
Seat 9: Lqke (77223 in chips)
MistryKid: posts the ante 100
StvBos: posts the ante 100
The Kronzs: posts the ante 100
luisfran: posts the ante 100
Tegen: posts the ante 100
got 6 aces: posts the ante 100
neilfrikn: posts the ante 100
jsmythib: posts the ante 100
Lqke: posts the ante 100
Lqke: posts small blind 1000
MistryKid: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to got 6 aces [Qs Jd]
StvBos: folds
The Kronzs: folds
luisfran: folds
Tegen: folds
got 6 aces: raises 22871 to 24871 and is all-in
neilfrikn: folds
jsmythib: folds
Lqke: calls 23871
MistryKid: folds
*** FLOP *** [8h 3d Ts]
*** TURN *** [8h 3d Ts] [7h]
*** RIVER *** [8h 3d Ts 7h] [Ks]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Lqke: shows [Kh Ac] (a pair of Kings)
got 6 aces: shows [Qs Jd] (high card King)
Lqke collected 52642 from pot

So i've made it into the money on the $3.30 $10K guaranteed and i've decided i want to be playing more aggressive than usual and i get this hand. Usually i wouldn't push with queen high but i felt i needed to double up more than i needed good cards.

I guess what i need to know is if this was an acceptable risk to take. It was an un-opened pot, i've an M of just above 6 and only 4 players to act after me. As you can see the reward for winning the hand was 52,642 chips which gives me an M of 13 and with it, a little bit of breathing space.
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Old Sep 15, 2006, 12:31pm   #2
turkish1801
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Seems to me to be an unnessisary risk. At the table you were not short stack, and if you had to push I would think you would wait for somewhat better cards before doing so. I probally would have called or made a moderate raise, maybe to 6-8k, but you would likely have a big dilema when mr AK goes over the top. I guess if you were going to raise at all, All-in would have to be the way to go. Next time try to see the flop before commiting your chips on such a speculative hand.
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Old Sep 15, 2006, 4:18pm   #3
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I dont think it's horrible, but you do want a hand with good showdown value when you make this play (Ax, Kx, PP) more than QJ.

Your M is low, so I don't think it's a horrible push, just not a great one.

Hows that for wishy washy
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Old Sep 15, 2006, 4:42pm   #4
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Can't fault you for the push, but with one of the deep stacks still to act, and a marginal hand like QJo, I'd prefer to just call and hope for a nice flop.
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Old Sep 15, 2006, 4:53pm   #5
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I don't like it. You have just enough chips to nip the blinds, which is what you should do with this hand.
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Old Sep 15, 2006, 5:17pm   #6
Got 6 Aces
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Ok thanks guys. I usually do wait for Ax, Kx, PP before a push but like i said i was willing to take the risk to hopefully just take the blinds down or get called and double up. Harrington says you wanna be looking to push and double up with an M of 7 or less and be looking to take advantage of first in vigour with an M of 5.

I think the problem is my experience and the books i've read. It seems like a fairly simple push/fold technique when it gets to this stage of a tournament but now i'm starting to get deeper more regularly, i notice that even with an M of 6 people are raising 3x BB. I guess i see that as dangerous coz it's a quarter of my stack being donated.

I had problems with adjusting to MTT play when the blinds hit 50/100 and my M was 20. Then playing turbo's has improved that. Now the problem's down to playing with an M of 6-11. I cant practice this area of my game due to the fact that in an MTT you're always at a full table and by the time you're M's this low in an SnG turbo or normal there's only ever 5-6 players left max.

Stoopid Q,J push. I will learn to have patience.
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Old Sep 15, 2006, 5:36pm   #7
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Well, this is dependant on the table. Often you will see 3bb raises stealing the blinds. Other times people will be calling or raising that action, esp big stacks. In that case you would be correct to reject that plan of action and go into push fold mode with an M of 6.

You were there and had the read.

A lot of posters here would probably never raise 3bb there.
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Old Sep 15, 2006, 6:57pm   #8
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harringtons push rule also takes into account average stack size man.
You are still in good enough shape here that risking your entire tourny on q high is questionable. put a raise out and see what happens.
if someone goes over the top you have a decision to make but at least you still have the option. right now you are allin as a dog to anyone willing to call and even if it folds around you risked your stack for the blinds
I do admit tho as jimmy pointed out it is table dependant
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Old Sep 15, 2006, 9:01pm   #9
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Yup, this is bad, although not absolutely terrible. I usually go into push/fold mode when I have 10 BBs left, you had a little more here. No need to get desperate yet. I also want something more decent than QJ, if you get called, you are far behind all but the most moronic callers range, likely even dominated.
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Old Sep 15, 2006, 10:23pm   #10
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Quote:
Yup, this is bad, although not absolutely terrible. I usually go into push/fold mode when I have 10 BBs left, you had a little more here. No need to get desperate yet. I also want something more decent than QJ, if you get called, you are far behind all but the most moronic callers range, likely even dominated.
According to my cacluations his M is just 6.5. 2k frmo the BB, 1K from SB and 1K in antes. His stack is 26k.
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