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Old Oct 31, 2006, 10:33pm   #21
theonlythree
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I know you aren't ragging on me, and I'm not taking it personally.

I was a winner in last night's game, even though you said I was predictable. Also, when I played the micro party game last week I had a tight image and I bluffed quite a few pots successfully...

Basically, I think that TAG is a good style (for me, at least) because it makes bluffs believable and I am comfortable with it.
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Old Oct 31, 2006, 10:37pm   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theonlythree View Post
I know you aren't ragging on me, and I'm not taking it personally.

I was a winner in last night's game, though. Also, when I played the micro party game last week I had a tight image and I bluffed quite a few pots successfully...

I don't know what point I am trying to make here.
Good winner. But as we've pointed out it's not IF you win, but HOW MUCH you win.

edit// If you're comfortable with TAG, that's completely okay! Just be aware of incorporating different facets of the game in order to make you a better player
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Old Oct 31, 2006, 11:12pm   #23
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Haha, what wasn't proper about it? There were cards, people, and money. Sounds proper to me.
Can't you use common sense to interpret conversation. Or do i really have to go into more detail.
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Old Oct 31, 2006, 11:20pm   #24
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Details please?
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Old Nov 01, 2006, 1:06am   #25
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This all very very wrong for many many reasons. Believing this to be true is going to stunt your poker growth in a serious way. Getting people to fold is only one way to win money, and I'd say its by far the least profitable of them all.
i know, the idea is flawed, but i'm having a hard time playing anything but the obvious cards at the micros and having anything to show for it. This thread is a bit confusing though. In most other threads, posters advocate ABC TAG poker, while in this thread, they say otherwise. I'm trying to grow as a player and want to be able to seriously beat these games before i even consider moving up.

what is it exactly that defines a player as loose? playing any two cards? or playing any cards that will win? sometimes it hard to tell.

any suggestions on my post that you think might help? i guess i have a fear to overcome, but as they say, scared money don't make money.
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Old Nov 01, 2006, 1:43am   #26
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This reminds me of a friend of mine, and the way he plays micros (he's ussually playing higher, but he goes all the way down to 1c/2c at times to have fun or blow off steam). He manages to win a lot with a very hectic game. Lets see if i got it right :
He raises every hand preflop. It's only a few blinds, but he does it with every hand within reason. He can fold to a raise, and he wont raise 100% of the time (he tends to just limp with utter trash, like 82o, but he will raise an 85). He ussually cbets and gets the pot on the flop.
This tends to make the whole table go after him, basically trying to take his whole stack (since they think he is a maniac). This is great for him, because these players will not belive him when he has a good hand (his 82 will hit 2 pair at times, or he could have a good hand to begin with) and will generally go all in with top pair (or even overcards ) ). This in turn makes every hand playable, since he does have implied odds. People this low will start slowplaying top pair, so he will be drawing to inside straights or backdoor flushes with the right odds.
If you think about it, he's actually using his advantages to the max : aggresion, play after the flop, putting people on hands, odds and implied odds, disregard for money (he stars by loosing a stack or two, but finishes up 7 stacks or more within 1 hour), emotional control (he gets the table on tilt with his play and a jovial chat abbundant attitude).

All in all, you will win the most money if you use every possible edge you have over your opponents (or the most profitable set of edges). So, if you're a great flop player then you should loosen up. If you're at a table with maniacs you should be more passive.

You should experiment, and start moving away from the things you read in books, and think for yourself. I think that the key to beying a great poker player is creativity (creating your unique game).

Im not exactly sure what abc tag really means, but i want to say that im trying to vary my play based on the table im at, and the people im involved in a hand with. I'll raise more on a tight player, and i will make plays versus tight people. I will call a maniac with marginal holdings, since he will give his whole stack away if i hit. But im still a noob and i'll sometimes play lag in the start of the evening since i played lag at lunch, although the tables have changed (daytime players are generally tighter, while night-time players tend to call down anything).
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Old Nov 01, 2006, 2:29am   #27
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Once upon a time a group of friends got together and played like maniacs on the micro limit tables, and the whole thing unfolded with a tedious inevitability.
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Old Nov 01, 2006, 7:53am   #28
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Dammit if I had NLHE:TaP in front of me I could come to the chapter I'm talking about but I'm at work so it's gonna be on the fly

1idjack: (This is from memory)

The basic idea behind a good loose player is that they will get money into quite a few pots both pre-flop and on the flop where it's "cheap" to do so. On the turn you'll find many of them revert to tight guidelines unless they have the hand they're representing or feel they can take the pot with a bluff. So occasionally they will raise with something like 85s and bet it out on the flop. The predicatbility of TAG or Weak players makes this a very viable strategy as, if you're called, you know when you're no good and you pick up many small pots when you both miss. And, of course, you'll rake in monster pots with crap as no-one will belive you're raising with something like 85s when the board on the river reads A8255. This also gives the added benefit that your genuine hands are more likely to be paid off.

The downside of this strategy is that it's difficult to play correctly and 9/10 of people who try it get it wrong. They overbet on the small streets, they bluff calling stations, they get frustrated when their C-Bets constantly fail. Tuff Fish is the perfect example of a LAG gone wrong.

To be successful with LAG you have to have:

1) Very good post-flop skills
2) Excellent hand reading skills
3) Good player-reading skills/judgment - Who will play back? Who will fold? Can you adapt your game?
4) B*lls of steel.

Good Luck
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Old Nov 01, 2006, 9:31am   #29
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I think that when the table is playing loose and passive, high card hands like AK aren't really the premium hands any more. Most hands end up going to showdown, so I think you need to focus more on cards that can make big hands like straights and flushes, as opposed to top pair type hands.

I think it's a good idea to mostly limp along with the rest, but it's a mistake to jump in with cards like J8, QT, K9, A7, etc, even after a few limpers. In the late positions, button, cutoff, couple to right of cutoff, your better off jumping in with a couple of cards 9 or lower, preferabally connectors like 98, 67 etc, but also with one and two gappers like 75, 64, 85, 96 etc, if thier suited it's a plus, but not essential.

As for raising pre-flop, i'd mostly just focus on the big pairs and actually be more inclined to just call after a limper or two with hands like AK, AQ, particuarly if your going to be out of position post-flop like in the small blind. Probably the biggest waste of money and the most frustrating aspect of it is folding for ages, picking up AK, raising, getting a couple of calls, missing the flop, c-betting and getting a couple of calls, then having to check fold. Basically if the table is mostly call stations I wouldn't want to start building a pot until i had some kind of hand.

If there is a lot of pre-flop raising and flop betting, then the table's more loose-aggresive and sitting waiting on high card hands is the way to go. Playing on a table of maniacs, or one with just a couple is a way to make money, but even if the maniacs are terrible players it's still going to be a more difficult game than playing with call stations, because they might be making dumb plays, but they'll still be putting you to decisions.
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Old Nov 01, 2006, 10:35am   #30
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PokerStars Game #6835749714: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2006/10/30 - 23:11:08 (ET)
Table 'Lydia IV' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: hurtchow ($1.57 in chips)
Seat 5: sasa223 ($9.15 in chips)
Seat 7: Kwan Li ($4.26 in chips)
Seat 8: WolfOnTheFol ($1 in chips)
Seat 9: Burzum88 ($8.04 in chips)
hurtchow: posts small blind $0.01
sasa223: posts big blind $0.02
WolfOnTheFol: posts small & big blinds $0.03
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hurtchow [2h 9c]
Kwan Li said, "weeeeeeeeak :-)"
Kwan Li: folds
WolfOnTheFol: raises $0.03 to $0.05
Burzum88 said, "yeah"
Burzum88: folds
hurtchow: folds
sasa223: calls $0.03
*** FLOP *** [Qd 2c 8d]
sasa223: bets $0.02
Burzum88 said, "wasnt sure about my A high"
WolfOnTheFol said, "sasa's got my number"
WolfOnTheFol: raises $0.02 to $0.04
sasa223: raises $0.02 to $0.06
WolfOnTheFol: raises $0.02 to $0.08
sasa223: raises $0.02 to $0.10
WolfOnTheFol: raises $0.02 to $0.12
sasa223: raises $0.02 to $0.14
WolfOnTheFol: raises $0.02 to $0.16
hurtchow said, "you guys all need to die"
sasa223: raises $0.02 to $0.18
WolfOnTheFol: raises $0.02 to $0.20
sasa223 said, "hahahaha"
sasa223: raises $0.02 to $0.22
WolfOnTheFol: raises $0.02 to $0.24
Burzum88 said, "fold"
sasa223: raises $0.02 to $0.26
hurtchow said, "go all the way"
hurtchow said, "this is so annoying"
WolfOnTheFol: raises $0.02 to $0.28
Kwan Li said, "7 high no draw"
hurtchow said, "i love it"
WolfOnTheFol said, "*cackles*"
sasa223 said, "you got me"
Burzum88 said, "the 20th min raise means set"

This is what i meant by not real poker. I lose interest quick when you guys are playing like this. The NL10 was fun, this time was stupid.
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