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Old Nov 06, 2006, 7:42pm   #21
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Originally Posted by eric melvin rules View Post
I absolutely HATE calling an all in in cash games without feeling I have a huge advantage.....
Eric, you are entitled to explain how you play the game, but you need to pay attention to the wisdom within this thread.

AcQh vs Jc6d is 67% vs 32% - that is a huge advantage and nothing like a coin flip.

You don't need to outplay people post flop when you can outplay them pre-flop. The read on the villain was strong and made this an easy call. If you are not going to put your chips in when a clear favourite, you are losing a lot of value over the long-term.
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Old Nov 06, 2006, 8:29pm   #22
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Eric,

You say it's not worth calling a big bet on essentially a gamble. Now imagine this:

You have 6h 6d and the flop comes Ts 6s 2d. You bet, villain pushes. You've seen him semibluff all-in with flush draws before. Do you call?

You're something like a 70% favourite to win this hand. Just like calling all-in with AQ pre-flop. Which one is more of a gamble? They're exactly the same. Folding AQ to a maniac PF is like folding a set because you don't want to gamble against a flush draw.
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Old Nov 06, 2006, 8:30pm   #23
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Originally Posted by jimmytrick View Post
Well, you don't know what you are talking about so why don't you shut up until you do?

Very suddle
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obviously, it's always my fault whenever anyone does anything stupid around here.

fucking morons every one of you. there isn't a man in this village that i wouldn't feed into an incinerator for no reason other than to get rid of them.

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Old Nov 07, 2006, 5:51am   #24
eric melvin rules
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Originally Posted by AMDeluxe View Post
Eric,

You say it's not worth calling a big bet on essentially a gamble. Now imagine this:

You have 6h 6d and the flop comes Ts 6s 2d. You bet, villain pushes. You've seen him semibluff all-in with flush draws before. Do you call?

You're something like a 70% favourite to win this hand. Just like calling all-in with AQ pre-flop. Which one is more of a gamble? They're exactly the same. Folding AQ to a maniac PF is like folding a set because you don't want to gamble against a flush draw.
Good point... but when I call the all-in with the set (wich I would do in a heart beat) and see the flush draw I am sick to my stomach. Difference here is that I call knowing that unless the guy has a flush draw (or a set of tens) I am a huge favorite to win the hand.... With AQ it is not a made hand - just because the guy is a donkey doesn't mean that he will never push with a good hand... I've insta-called one too many times with a marginal hand like AQ because I knew the guy was a maniac - then they show a pair or AK and I'm in trouble....

You all may think I'm an idiot - and it may be true - but I don't feel comfortable calling off a large part of my buy-in with a marginal hand like AQ pre-flop. I'll let the donkey take my blinds and wait for a better time to take his stack. Say I lose that big pot to this guy - there's a good chance he'll hit-and-run and take off... then I've lost my fish, and I've lost a bunch of money. Why not just pick a better time to trap the guy? With the example of the set v. flush draw -- I've already committed money to the pot, I've already made the hand I was looking for, and I'm probably just thrilled to see the guy play back at my set... So I'm going to call in that situation.... I know the percentages are similar - but it's a lot easier for me to fold a mediocre hand like AQ pre-flop than a set on the flop...

So go ahead and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about - I'm going to play my game, and you can play yours. I'm not going to gamble with my money when I know I can find a better spot....

Next time somebody insults me it will not be pretty. Please keep your comments to yourself if you have nothing intelligent to say (talking to you jimmy and shadds).
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Old Nov 07, 2006, 6:22am   #25
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Difference here is that I call knowing that unless the guy has a flush draw (or a set of tens) I am a huge favorite to win the hand....
Is 3:1 not good enough for you? You're still a huge favorite on a flush draw.

Quote:
Why not just pick a better time to trap the guy?
Because in a cash game, you push every edge of +ev. You are behind to all pairs and AK. You are ahead of everything else. Is it true that the maniac may wake up with a real hand? Yes. Is it likely that he'd open push Aces? Probably not, but we'll say he will. Is it likely? No. If someone has a history of pushing marginal hands and especially if they seem to be tilting, you are definitely the favorite to have the best hand here.

Quote:
I'm not going to gamble with my money when I know I can find a better spot....
Any spot is a good spot when you are the favorite.

I'm not trying to berate you, I just don't get why people are reluctant to put money in situations where they're ahead.
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Old Nov 07, 2006, 6:48am   #26
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Originally Posted by eric melvin rules View Post
Not a chance I would call an all in holding AQ off suit... even if I know the person is holding rags.

error: AQo is 65% vs a random hand

Why? 1) Because even though you have the best hand at the moment - against most hands it's only a 3 to 2 favorite.... which is almost a coin flip.

error: against any sorta of reasonable pushing range it would be 55:45, which is not a coin flip; a coin flip is 50:50

error: any competent poker player would be glad to have all his money in at 3:2 or 55:45

2) You have no opportunity to outplay this guy post-flop, and you just have to cross your fingers and hope they don't suck out on you.

error: any competent poker player knows that it is better to get your money in @ 55:45 than to hope for a better spot

error: competent poker players don't waste time hoping

3) Nobody else is in this hand, so you're only getting 1-1 on your money here... that's not very good, especially when it's for about 1/5 of your total chips.

error: it was not 1:1

error: any competent poker player would welcome the opportunity to get in a favorite with all his money

I would only call this bet holding a strong pair - 10's at the absolute min....

error: this ignores the "read" and any competent poker player understands that playing by the math only (have to have certain holding for certain situations) is not winning poker [exceptions granted for online multabling]

The only way I would call a large all in bet holding a marginal hand like AQ is if I was already pot commited (you weren't)

error: the idea of being pot committed and having to call a large all in bet is nonsense

, I had a good idea of what the guy had and believed I had them dominated (you didn't know what the guy had, and you didn't have him dominated),

error: to think that you have to wait for a dominate position before getting the money in is indicative of novice thinking

or if I was tilting and wanted to gamble.

error: self explanatory



Just my two cents....
two cents don't buy much these days....

all above comments refer to cash game play
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Old Nov 07, 2006, 7:07am   #27
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Originally Posted by eric melvin rules View Post
Oh shads....A bit more diplomatic? You didn't even make a point - all you did was say I don't know what I'm talking about, and you act suprised that I'd be offended....... anyway....

error: yours, for assuming that Shads should know that he should tip toe around your feelings on a poker forum where serious minded players congregate to talk shop

error: yours, for thinking that a poker forum is a tea party

Acehole - I understand that in the long run you'll win more often than lose when making this call -- but I still can't justify calling off a good part of my chip stack on what is in my opinion a gamble.

error: if calling is +ev it can be in no way considered a gamble; it is a considered wager

error: based on the incomplete works of Eric's Rules, your forming opinions is at best a gamble, at worst potentially hazardous to your sanity and well being

If this were a tournament - where I need to get chips as fast as possible - I'd be more willing to make the call (assuming I had the same read that they player held nothing good)...

error: tournament play has distinctly different stages and in many cases if would be as incorrect to make this call in a tourney as it is correct to make it in a cash game

I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but I'd rather take my time at a ring game and pick my spots on my own terms.

error: it is incorrect to pass on +ev spots in cash games

I absolutely HATE calling an all in in cash games without feeling I have a huge advantage.....

error: it is a huge error to be a huge wussy playing poker
hate that pal
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Old Nov 07, 2006, 7:15am   #28
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Originally Posted by eric melvin rules View Post
I guess I'm a little jilted... I've called one too many all in holding something like AQ knowing the guy pushed with rags - then pounded my face on my desk after the guy caught a pair and I didn't....

error: pounding face on desk is life -ev, but in your case this is likely a small error

I don't claim to be an expert -

uh, correct

but I'm simply not going to risk that much of my stack unless I feel like I have the person totally dominated. I'd rather see a flop and get some idea where the hand is going before I'm willing to risk that much. That's my style... and I don't think that means I don't know what I'm doing.

error: it does

The fact that I play $.10 NL means that I have no idea what I'm doing.....
I play anywhere from dime to six dollar tables and I am certain that you have no idea what you are doing
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Old Nov 07, 2006, 7:29am   #29
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Originally Posted by eric melvin rules View Post
You have anything to say about poker or are you too busy thinking you're superior to everyone? Like I said before - I don't claim to be an expert at poker - in fact I claim to be a pretty weak player... does that mean I can't say what I would do in a certain situation? NO. Grow up guy.
error: Shads is a well known, well respected and MATURE poster as well as a feared player in these parts...in short, he would be almost certainly correct if he felt superior to most of us

...and you are the one who looks like he could age a bit kiddo
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Old Nov 07, 2006, 7:31am   #30
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Yeah, I made a mistake saying AQ would be a 3 to 2 favorite - should have been 2 to 1.... doesn't make much difference to me since it's only a 10% difference.

I'm not a gambler - like you obviously are.... The way I play has very low varience and I like it that way. I'm not going to risk a large part of my buy-in on a medium strength hand like AQ. Losing a large pot because I wasn't patient enough is something I've done many times by calling people with something like AQ just because I knew I was ahead.

Two examples of how this has worked out....
Hand one - .5/.10 NLHE ring game 6-handed -- Guy comes to table and goes all in five hands in a row - showed down 2 times and both times held rags. I'm in the BB, and he's in SB, it folds to SB and he pushes all in for about $10... I have about $24 and hold Ah10h I insta-call.... he holds 6d9h.... guy gets a pair on the flop and I never improve my hand... I consider the call a horrible one (much worse than calling with AQ) - even though I knew I was ahead.

Hand 2 (another $.10 BB ring game)- Super loose player is tilted after a guy makes a straight on the river to beat his TP/TK (his AI was called on flop). I am dealt 10h10c UTG and raise to $.30 - folds to tilting guy who raises to $1... folds to me and I call... Flop is Qxx rainbow... I bet $2 and guy raises all-in for about $8 more...... I insta-call and he holds nothing but 8 high with no draw....

I am always looking for situations like hand 2 at the limits I play... I am not going to make calls like I did in hand one ever again... it's just not worth it to me. Call me wrong all you like - I think I defend my possition pretty damn well. Throwing around BS terms like "+EV" and the like does not impress me. The fact is - I'm not a wussy, I just like to choose my spots more carefully than most. I hate to gamble against two live cards - even with AK... I will almost never put my money in the pot by calling a large bet - if it's going in I want to put it in as a raise/bet - not as a call... especially when I hold something as marginal as AQos.

Hate that pal.
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