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Old Jan 14, 2007, 7:18am   #31
Xigol
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JTs is a good hand to push with, i think its a tough call. Obviously i think we all agree that the call fold was stupid, but u know that so thats good

I may fold, depending on how agressive the players had been due to being in a fairly early position. The AI may get the first limper out, possibly, but lots of people to act. But yeah, a push would still have been a good move.

Just take more time to think about it, and never call with an M that low
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Old Jan 14, 2007, 8:41am   #32
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Yeah, like, I thought this was a completely standard fold. I'm pretty sure the limper calls most (like 80%+) of the time, and I can't see him not having you beat when he calls. I think the limp is pretty bad, too.

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I still don't see a difference between going all-in or calling an all-in.
Because when you push with 23o, people may fold; this makes up for the times they call and annihilate you. When you call a push with 23o, your folding equity is zero. You must outdraw your opponent. Typically, JT is beat by most people's pushing range, and is probably a 6:5 dog at best. Worst case, it is dominated or up against AQ/AK/KQ. This is why calling a push with it is pretty bad unless you are extremely short and the pot is laying you better odds than that.

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So if you don't call the all-in because you are behind then when do you play any draw?
When you're extremely short stacked, no, you do not.

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In this case, calling the all-in would have resulted in a win so was a proper play.
...No. The proper play is never such because of results. It is correct because of the calculated EV at the time the money goes in.

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If you pushed and had a caller there would be no discussion. If you called the all-in and won there would be no discussion.
I would still be critiquing it.
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Old Jan 15, 2007, 8:13pm   #33
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Ok here is my how I should have played it rationale:

All In - 80% of the time. M is so low / blinds are large / Table was really loose as it was Full Tilt in the later stages / Suited connectors play well against over cards esp high ones as they have str8 and flush potential.

Fold - 20% If the original raiser was a rock then i'd give him some credit. Also betting first gives you more chance of people laying down(someone mentioned this)

Call - 0% - This is where I made the 1st mistake. M is to low to call with any hand here - my chips are to low for even an AA slow play - if i go AI i WILL be called 90% of the time (the AI will just reduce number of callers hopefully). My final mistake was folding after the call - If i had just called it would have somewhat corrected my original mistake.
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Old Jan 20, 2007, 5:40am   #34
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Well here is the playing of JTs that couldn't of gone any better...

PokerStars Game #8010427305: Tournament #40916496, 1500FPP Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/01/18 - 22:14:48 (ET)
Table '40916496 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Chadwick1725 (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: Doc Willis (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: Vampire Baby (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: BHICfan (1480 in chips)
Seat 5: yorn (1510 in chips)
Seat 6: buckhoya (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: whatevva (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: kingk3nt (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: Jonnybegoode (1550 in chips)
BHICfan: posts small blind 10
yorn: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Vampire Baby [Th Jh]
buckhoya: calls 20
whatevva: calls 20
kingk3nt: calls 20
Jonnybegoode: folds
Chadwick1725: folds
Doc Willis: folds
Vampire Baby: raises 80 to 100
BHICfan: folds
yorn: calls 80
buckhoya: folds
whatevva: calls 80
kingk3nt: calls 80
*** FLOP *** [7h 5d 9h]
yorn: checks
whatevva: checks
kingk3nt: checks
Vampire Baby: bets 100
yorn: calls 100
whatevva: calls 100
kingk3nt: folds
*** TURN *** [7h 5d 9h] [8h]
yorn: checks
whatevva: checks
Vampire Baby: checks
*** RIVER *** [7h 5d 9h 8h] [2s]
yorn: checks
whatevva: bets 200
Vampire Baby: raises 300 to 500
yorn: folds
whatevva: raises 800 to 1300 and is all-in
Vampire Baby: calls 770 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
whatevva: shows [Ah 6h] (a flush, Ace high)
Vampire Baby: shows [Th Jh] (a straight flush, Seven to Jack)
Vampire Baby collected 3270 from pot
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Old Jan 20, 2007, 6:06am   #35
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Bump.

I have to bump this otherwise I am gonna literally die laughing seeing "How Not to play" listed "by Axis of Evil" in the beginners corner.

Oh no wait......
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Old Jan 20, 2007, 7:57am   #36
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I actually hate that preflop raise, and I'm not big on checking the turn, either.
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Old Jan 20, 2007, 4:48pm   #37
Axis of Evil
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This entire thread has been about raising with this hand and now all of a sudden you hate the preflop raise? You guys are impossible, and Jimmy is still a dick. It doesn't matter what I submit I guess, someone will find fault with it. And you don't like checking the turn? So far in this game a bet pushed out everyone and so wanted to play like I was weak after getting some money in the pot. If second best had anything then he would make a move on the river, which he did.

This table was tight but the guy playing at it doesn't know squat while the Monday morning quarterbacks have it all figured out. The preflop raise was proper and the check at the turn was likely moot given the ace high flush but was situational and called for. This was still early in the game and the chips weren't flying yet so a preflop raise might have taken down the pot and a check at the turn might have encouraged someone to steal or to bet their hand accordingly. The ace was looking to set me up in a trap and my re-raise looked like a steal attempt and elicited the all-in. I thought it was a good move on my part but since it's AoE then it must have been bad on some level, any level. You can't argue with the results, well then again I forget where I am...
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