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Old Feb 04, 2007, 7:07pm   #1
Molinero
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Default I hate TPTK

It's official - I suck big time. I just can't play TPTK - I lose so many pots with it.

My problem is that I play fairly TAG and most of the time I'll just hit TPTK and I have a real problem laying it down. I raise preflop with AK or AQ (or similar) and a loose player calls - I hit A on the flop, bet and guy calls ... I have no idea where I'm at.

Often I think I'm winning (=problem) ... how do you keep the pot small and at the same time figure out whether you are winning or not?

According to PO I'm losing almost as much with pairs as I'm winning with sets. How do I get better playing TPTK? What articles/books do I have to read? What do I have to think about when facing a loose player and I have TPTK?
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Old Feb 04, 2007, 8:05pm   #2
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Example hand history?

Try and pick the most embarassing hand. I find those the most useful in plugging leaks.
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Old Feb 04, 2007, 8:28pm   #3
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Okay - but it's not pretty.

Holdem No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/02/04 - 14:44:49 (ET)
Table Baucis III 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Lazzmo ($11.45 in chips)
Seat 2: radon99 ($24.30 in chips)
Seat 3: DK-Molinero ($26.60 in chips)
Seat 4: carrotsnake ($23.70 in chips)
Seat 5: forrestpmgum ($17.95 in chips)
Seat 6: lilgambler4U ($17.60 in chips)
forrestpmgum: posts small blind $0.10
lilgambler4U: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DK-Molinero [Ac Kd]
Lazzmo: folds
radon99: folds
DK-Molinero: raises $0.75 to $1
carrotsnake: folds
forrestpmgum: raises $1.25 to $2.25
lilgambler4U: folds
DK-Molinero: calls $1.25
*** FLOP *** [5s 8s As]
forrestpmgum: bets $4
DK-Molinero: raises $8 to $12
forrestpmgum: raises $3.70 to $15.70 and is all-in
DK-Molinero: calls $3.70
*** TURN *** [5s 8s As] [9c]
*** RIVER *** [5s 8s As 9c] [6s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
forrestpmgum: shows [Ah Ad] (three of a kind, Aces)
DK-Molinero: mucks hand
forrestpmgum collected $34.40 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $36.15 | Rake $1.75
Board [5s 8s As 9c 6s]
Seat 1: Lazzmo folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 2: radon99 folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 3: DK-Molinero mucked [Ac Kd]
Seat 4: carrotsnake (button) folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 5: forrestpmgum (small blind) showed [Ah Ad] and won ($34.40) with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 6: lilgambler4U (big blind) folded before Flop

PokerStars Game #7680883650: Holdem No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/12/30 - 14:59:32 (ET)
Table Adelgunde 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: peruviano ($11.95 in chips)
Seat 2: Golden_sun ($50.60 in chips)
Seat 3: motogolfer ($20.45 in chips)
Seat 4: DK-Molinero ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 5: philip273 ($16.15 in chips)
philip273: posts small blind $0.10
peruviano: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DK-Molinero [Qs As]
Golden_sun: folds
motogolfer: calls $0.25
DK-Molinero: raises $1 to $1.25
philip273: folds
peruviano: calls $1
motogolfer: folds
*** FLOP *** [9d 7s Qc]
peruviano: checks
DK-Molinero: bets $2
peruviano: calls $2
*** TURN *** [9d 7s Qc] [6s]
peruviano: checks
DK-Molinero: bets $6
peruviano: raises $2.70 to $8.70 and is all-in
DK-Molinero: calls $2.70
*** RIVER *** [9d 7s Qc 6s] [9h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
peruviano: shows [Ts 8s] (a straight, Six to Ten)
DK-Molinero: shows [Qs As] (two pair, Queens and Nines)
peruviano collected $23.10 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $24.25 | Rake $1.15
Board [9d 7s Qc 6s 9h]
Seat 1: peruviano (big blind) showed [Ts 8s] and won ($23.10) with a straight, Six to Ten
Seat 2: Golden_sun folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 3: motogolfer folded before Flop
Seat 4: DK-Molinero (button) showed [Qs As] and lost with two pair, Queens and Nines
Seat 5: philip273 (small blind) folded before Flop

PokerStars Game #8199478963: Holdem No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/01/30 - 17:12:49 (ET)
Table Swings II 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: WhackinJack ($13.70 in chips)
Seat 2: DK-Molinero ($34.50 in chips)
Seat 3: aksiuchenka ($15.25 in chips)
Seat 4: dinsiggi ($10.25 in chips)
Seat 5: nicklessss ($22.15 in chips)
Seat 6: Chrisinjo ($10.15 in chips)
dinsiggi: posts small blind $0.10
nicklessss: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DK-Molinero [Qd Ac]
Chrisinjo: calls $0.25
WhackinJack: folds
DK-Molinero: raises $1 to $1.25
aksiuchenka: folds
dinsiggi: folds
nicklessss: folds
Chrisinjo: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [As 3d 2h]
Chrisinjo: checks
DK-Molinero: bets $2
Chrisinjo: raises $2 to $4
DK-Molinero: raises $6 to $10
Chrisinjo: calls $4.90 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [As 3d 2h] [6s]
*** RIVER *** [As 3d 2h 6s] [Jd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Chrisinjo: shows [3c 3s] (three of a kind, Threes)
DK-Molinero: mucks hand
Chrisinjo collected $19.65 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $20.65 | Rake $1
Board [As 3d 2h 6s Jd]
Seat 1: WhackinJack folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 2: DK-Molinero mucked [Qd Ac]
Seat 3: aksiuchenka (button) folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 4: dinsiggi (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: nicklessss (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Chrisinjo showed [3c 3s] and won ($19.65) with three of a kind, Threes


PokerStars Game #7778252526: Holdem No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/01/05 - 13:21:38 (ET)
Table Troilus III 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: Schaler ($8.15 in chips)
Seat 4: DK-Molinero ($42.90 in chips)
Seat 5: TomTomGo112 ($8.10 in chips)
Seat 6: 4sarewild ($31.55 in chips)
Schaler: posts small blind $0.10
Schaler said, "nh"
DK-Molinero: posts big blind $0.25
TomTomGo112: posts small & big blinds $0.35
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DK-Molinero [Jc Ac]
6*$Malle$*6 has returned
TomTomGo112: checks
4sarewild: calls $0.25
Schaler: calls $0.15
DK-Molinero: raises $1 to $1.25
TomTomGo112: calls $1
4sarewild: folds
Schaler: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qh 9h Ad]
DK-Molinero: bets $2
TomTomGo112: calls $2
*** TURN *** [Qh 9h Ad] [6d]
DK-Molinero: bets $5
TomTomGo112: calls $4.75 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Qh 9h Ad 6d] [8h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DK-Molinero: shows [Jc Ac] (a pair of Aces)
TomTomGo112: shows [9d 9c] (three of a kind, Nines)
TomTomGo112 collected $15.80 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $16.60 | Rake $0.80
Board [Qh 9h Ad 6d 8h]
Seat 2: Schaler (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: DK-Molinero (big blind) showed [Jc Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 5: TomTomGo112 showed [9d 9c] and won ($15.80) with three of a kind, Nines
Seat 6: 4sarewild (button) folded before Flop


I know that AJ hand really isn't TPTK ... but I've had severe problems with AJ in the past and that leak is not all closed.

After the hands end I know that I played them really bad - horrible.. but when I'm at the table I just screw up.

Last edited by Molinero; Feb 04, 2007 at 8:31pm.
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Old Feb 04, 2007, 8:37pm   #4
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What are you losing to? What are the board textures like?

A couple of things you can do to control the pot is checking behind on the turn and checking behind on the river. Not in the same hand, though.

If you check behind on the turn you will be inducing river bluffs that you will need to call most of the time with TPTK on a favorable board. If you put your opponent on a draw that gets there on the river you can't pay it off, though.

If you bet the turn and get check-raised, ask yourself if this is the spot to play a big pot. If you lay it down you will be inducing turn check-raise bluffs on later hands where you can push with TPTK.
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Old Feb 04, 2007, 8:50pm   #5
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Stop with the pot size bets. When you have top pair and bet the pot, you're not really getting many hands that you can beat to call you. So, you're either getting a small pot, or loosing a big one.

Bet less, around half pot bets are fine, unless you're confindent that you're up against draws, where you should bet 3/4 pot. Betting less, starting from the flop, will keep the pots smaller on the turn and river.

You dont really care where you're at with TPTK, as long as the pots stay as small as you want them to. A half pot bet could get a call from second pair or underpairs or whatnot.

Also, checking behind on the turn and calling a river bet is a great idea (assuming that you're mostly in position when you play). You're allowing bad hands a chance to bet or bluff you out.
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Old Feb 04, 2007, 9:03pm   #6
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Okay let's break it down Moli,

First and foremost were there reads on any of these players? Doesn't look like it, they're all shortstacks and you should be very thankful that they are.

Hand #1: Moli, I think we both know he had aces there. Very few hands re-raise you PF and then pop you on the flop with a $4 bet. At best he's getting crazy with AQ, or KK, QQ, and at worst..well you know. I think you can actually make a strong case for straight folding this AK. Either way that is a very tough decision and a read on whether he was aggressive/solid ANYTHING would have helped there.

Hand #2: Again, you can make a strong case for betting/checking the turn there but I think I would be betting there most of the time. He just happened to have the straight. You can bet $3 here if he's still drawing or he has a weaker Q and be able to get away from the hand if he makes a big push! Of course, still, I probably wouldn't fold. But next time consider checking or not betting pot size on the turn, just give them improper odds!

Hand #3: Nothing you can do here I think, I hate shortstacks too.

Hand #4: See hand #3

You didn't play them "horrible" Moli. Don't berrate yourself too much. A couple of those decisions came from being forced to call with disgust because they're shortstacks.

Let's see some bigstack errors.

Also, I find that TPTK hands are most useful when playing someone with reads. Given that, without reads I'd like to check more on the turn so I didn't build too big of a pot.
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Old Feb 04, 2007, 9:15pm   #7
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I think hands like TPTK and overpairs are only really solid in the late stages of tournaments. In cash games, they should be played very, very carefully.

I'm down four buy-ins this week because of the huge pots I've lost in those situations.
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Old Feb 04, 2007, 9:30pm   #8
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I fourbet hand one to about $7 preflop; reraised pots oop is the suck. It's sort of close, though; a lot of people's threebet range is exactly AA/KK. Fold flop unless you think he has the stones to bet kings there, and even then it's close; he's good money to have the Ks or Qs if he doesn't already have you beat. If he'd checked I'd bet, but if he leads after you threebet he probably has you crushed.

Hand two is pretty fine - I probably make it $4.50 or $5 on the turn but I'm folding TPTK and the NFD for 50 bbs about never.

Hand three isn't all that bad if you have some sort of read that the guy will felt worse aces, and a lot of people will.

Hand four you're beating AT and a heart draw. c/f turn.
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Old Feb 04, 2007, 9:41pm   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogboy4L View Post

Hand four you're beating AT and a heart draw. c/f turn.
You would really fold that to a short stack with 4.75 left behind?
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Old Feb 04, 2007, 10:19pm   #10
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I don't see anything the shortstack would bet with that I'm beating.
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