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Old Feb 04, 2007, 10:22pm   #11
KHSPoker21
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That would be assuming he bet. I'm just saying that I see A8, A7, AT a lot of times
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Old Feb 05, 2007, 12:26am   #12
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Thanks for starting this thread Molinero. I have exactly the same problem; AK /AKs is by far my biggest leak, although if I could somehow manage never to hit a pair on the flop I could probably make a tidy little profit through c-betting! At least you know when to give up then. It's when I get a "good" flop that I get myself into trouble.
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Old Feb 05, 2007, 4:27am   #13
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Well i'm going to go ahead and say that these hands really weren't that bad. The first one you should have let go, especially since the flop was all spades and you didn't have one. However, in most of them you were up against someone who was fairly shortstacked, and i'd probably be willing to double them up if they had tptk beat. I've seen shortstacks push with much less than TPTK in these situations.

However, take the guys advice from earlier in the thread who said to bet less, especially on the turn. Unless the board is particularly drawy, there's usually not much reason to bet more than 1/2 to 2/3 pot with tptk.
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Old Feb 05, 2007, 9:48am   #14
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Hand #1: i think you have to raise or fold preflop, calling was the big mistake IMO. Although alot of players only 3-bet with AA/KK i would still raise here unless i had a read.

Hand #2: This one is fine IMO, you priced out the draw and you cant assume he hit the 6.

Hands #3 & #4: These hands are fine IMO. I stack off with AA and TPTK to flopped sets often.

Notice in hand 3 the villian minraises, this is often a massive sign of strength (usually a flopped set) but still i stack off here anyway. This flop is pretty dry and after being check raised i think theres little chance you are ahead, i think players who raise a draw would push all-in at that point to maximise fold equity.

In the last 3 hands the villian has less than half a buy-in and I wouldn't lose any sleep because they got all-in with the best hand. If you could find some examples of hands where you lost a full buy-in with these hands they would be easier to analyse.

A risky method but often effective if you're in position is to check behind the turn; this will often induce a bluff from missed draws, and convice average hands that they're probably good and you get more value. Also you're more likely to get hands you beat to call a value bet on the river if they check again. The obvious down-side to this play is letting draws get there and not knowing if it's a scare card bluff or a made hand (this is where reads are useful)

This is an article on pot control.
http://www.philivey.com/phil-ivey-tips.php?learntips=88

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Old Feb 05, 2007, 11:09am   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doza View Post
Stop with the pot size bets. When you have top pair and bet the pot, you're not really getting many hands that you can beat to call you. So, you're either getting a small pot, or loosing a big one.

Bet less, around half pot bets are fine, unless you're confindent that you're up against draws, where you should bet 3/4 pot. Betting less, starting from the flop, will keep the pots smaller on the turn and river.

You dont really care where you're at with TPTK, as long as the pots stay as small as you want them to. A half pot bet could get a call from second pair or underpairs or whatnot.

Also, checking behind on the turn and calling a river bet is a great idea (assuming that you're mostly in position when you play). You're allowing bad hands a chance to bet or bluff you out.
Nope,its six handed,therefore it can be assumed TPTK is good most of the time.Stronger value bets are necesarry and +EV in my opinion.
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Old Feb 05, 2007, 4:18pm   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opti0n View Post
Well i'm going to go ahead and say that these hands really weren't that bad. The first one you should have let go, especially since the flop was all spades and you didn't have one. However, in most of them you were up against someone who was fairly shortstacked, and i'd probably be willing to double them up if they had tptk beat. I've seen shortstacks push with much less than TPTK in these situations.

However, take the guys advice from earlier in the thread who said to bet less, especially on the turn. Unless the board is particularly drawy, there's usually not much reason to bet more than 1/2 to 2/3 pot with tptk.
Agreed.
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Old Feb 05, 2007, 4:43pm   #17
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Whats the logic in betting more on draw heavy boards?If he has you beat you just lose more money than you have to.However if u think he has middle pair or top pair weak kicker u bet strong to get more.
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Old Feb 05, 2007, 5:01pm   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opti0n View Post
Unless the board is particularly drawy, there's usually not much reason to bet more than 1/2 to 2/3 pot with tptk.
I agree also. The way you currently play TPTK you are probably finding that either everyone folds or you get stacked by a better hand.

TPTK is a small pot hand, everytime you bet the pot you are building a big pot which will only be contested by a big pot hand (strong draws or sets), and you are pushing all of the other small pot hands away.

You shouldn't be afraid to bet small, if you are ahead on the flop with TPTK you are a big favourite to win the pot by the river unless up against a monster draw with 12 outs or more. You should be slowing down on the turn and river as the more cards that come out, the more vulnerable your TPTK is.

Pot control is achieved by making small defensive bets to get value from lesser hands and to give the wrong odds to drawing hands. Bets of 1/3 to 1/2 pot will easily achieve this.
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Old Feb 05, 2007, 5:02pm   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AAA View Post
Whats the logic in betting more on draw heavy boards?If he has you beat you just lose more money than you have to.However if u think he has middle pair or top pair weak kicker u bet strong to get more.
What do you consider a draw heavy board? I consider it, for example, two to a flush and 2 to a straight on the flop (As 8s 7h). TPTK is still good against the draws so you charge more to see the next card. In my experience most players chasing a flush will call large bets. All they see is the money in the middle, they do not consider the long run. By betting more with TPTK on draw heavy boards you're making more money in the long run.

If I think my opponenet will call bets with 2nd pair or TP weak kicker I'll bet for value. How much to bet depends on my opponenet, but something around 1/2-2/3 of the pot. I don't want to scare off a hand that is drawing to 3-5 outs. But I also don't want to bet to small to where my opponenet raises me and puts me in a tough spot.
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Old Feb 05, 2007, 6:51pm   #20
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wow I just ran through a large number of hands and until now I hadn't realised that I almost always was making pot sized bets with TPTK - talk about a leak.

Well I've played some hands and tried to bet less when hitting TPTK (1/2 pot) and generally playing it a bit more defensive than otherwise. I works! I feel much more confident (a famous tentacle once said: HAHAHA I feel like I could take on the world). I think I'm going to review this thread before I fire up the tables the next couple of times.

Quote:
I agree also. The way you currently play TPTK you are probably finding that either everyone folds or you get stacked by a better hand.
Thats so right - spot on.

So for now I going to go with betting a little less. I'm going to post hands in this thread if I feel I running into trouble or want to ask whether or not I played the hand correctly. Thanks guys.
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