THE FORUMS


German ForumsGeneral DiscussionStrategyFrench Forum
Old Feb 21, 2007, 5:58pm   #1
Nikitis
Flop Artist
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 92
Reputation: 10
Nikitis is on a distinguished road
Default the anti short stack strategy

ive played a lot of years of poker and see almost zero advantage to the "short stack in NL"

the only reason you'll play the short stack is because you are afraid to lose the full buy in. no other reason is valid

guys say "if i get sucked out on with AA all in, vs KK....i won't lose as much as you"

that hand is a wash. you are going to get AA against KK as much as you'll get KK vs AA. and the odds say you should get your share of suckouts in, just like people will against you. same as set vs set. you'll have an overset about the same amount of times as you would an underset.

NL is about maximizing wins, not limping around. i played the short stack strategy when i first started for several months, and wasn't going anywhere with my bankroll. so i took a chance and started playing the full buy ins......and have never had to look back. you move up and down based on if you can afford the max for that room

i love guys who sit at a 200 buy in with 40 bucks......then play hands like suited connectors (which they've seen on tv) for 5-10 raises. you think when you win, you are really winning?

because you sit with such a small stack you are not paying yourself off for those type of wins

you can't protect a hand because anyone with chips at the table is calling your bets because they aren't much and you don't have anything to put them to the test.

if u can only afford 50 to sit with.....they have 50 buy ins.

but these are just my thoughts
__________________
Niki

www nikitispoker com
Nikitis est déconnecté   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Don't like this ad? Register to make it go away!

Old Feb 21, 2007, 6:06pm   #2
DoubleU
Calling station #1
 
DoubleU's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Representing the idiocy of today
Posts: 4,571
Reputation: 3735
DoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond repute
Default

When played well, i.e. not doing the stuff you mentioned, a shortstack strategy can be pretty effective, although horribly boring, not likely to improve your general poker game, and liable to annoy the rest of the table.
__________________
AFPP Member

Quote:
When DoubleU says, "wtf, no" you should take heed.
- jimmytrick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus View Post
youre thinking ship all the money to big daddy and are now thinking about how to receive that shipment
DoubleU est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 21, 2007, 7:02pm   #3
Nikitis
Flop Artist
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 92
Reputation: 10
Nikitis is on a distinguished road
Default

effective how?

lets say we are 200 buy in game.

how does nailing a set vs someones AA, when you have 40 and they have 200.........how is that effective?

u'll see a donk get lucky on some hands and be there with 200ish......and a short stack will say (all ur money is mine, or some variation of)

how?
you cant even stack a total donk, who'll be broke in 25 mins.

that isnt effective NL
__________________
Niki

www nikitispoker com
Nikitis est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 21, 2007, 7:37pm   #4
acehole_76
I found Kc...............
 
acehole_76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: now bring back northview
Posts: 7,632
Reputation: 2310
acehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond reputeacehole_76 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Ask Chris Ferguson?



Never mind I will tell you.

Quote:
you can't protect a hand because anyone with chips at the table is calling your bets because they aren't much and you don't have anything to put them to the test.
You are correct you cant get people to fold to your AI bets, ok use that. Sit and fold until you get a premium hand then put it all in. People gamble with the short stacks more then they should. I am not saying you will get better, I am not saying it is fun, but you can make alot of money playing Shortstack AI poker....like I said check out how Chris Ferguson did it, his little experiment proved it better then I can explain it.


ps

Quote:
how does nailing a set vs someones AA, when you have 40 and they have 200.........how is that effective?
You are not playing small pairs or SC and you are not limping so this situation doesnt come up.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by killcrazy View Post
obviously, it's always my fault whenever anyone does anything stupid around here.

fucking morons every one of you. there isn't a man in this village that i wouldn't feed into an incinerator for no reason other than to get rid of them.

Kc

Last edited by acehole_76; Feb 21, 2007 at 7:39pm.
acehole_76 est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 21, 2007, 8:16pm   #5
DoubleU
Calling station #1
 
DoubleU's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Representing the idiocy of today
Posts: 4,571
Reputation: 3735
DoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond reputeDoubleU has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikitis View Post
effective how?

lets say we are 200 buy in game.

how does nailing a set vs someones AA, when you have 40 and they have 200.........how is that effective?

u'll see a donk get lucky on some hands and be there with 200ish......and a short stack will say (all ur money is mine, or some variation of)

how?
you cant even stack a total donk, who'll be broke in 25 mins.

that isnt effective NL
Please note that I said "when played well", as well as "not doing the stuff you mentioned".
__________________
AFPP Member

Quote:
When DoubleU says, "wtf, no" you should take heed.
- jimmytrick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus View Post
youre thinking ship all the money to big daddy and are now thinking about how to receive that shipment
DoubleU est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 21, 2007, 8:40pm   #6
TWLLM
100
 
TWLLM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,271
Reputation: 957
TWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to beholdTWLLM is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikitis View Post
the odds say you should get your share of suckouts in
True, but the odds sometimes take a f*cking long time to say it, if they ever do get around to it.


BTW, I agree totally that most people who buyin short are just weak, but not in the same way. They're weak at post-flop play, not necessarily just 'stupid'.
Done correctly short buying can be a good strategy for tournament players who want to play cash games but suck at 'real' poker.
It also induces some people to call with weaker hands thinking the short stack is just pushing to pick up chips.
It's also good to take away implied odds for draws from other players, not that they aren't passing up value on their own draws as you pointed out.
__________________
If I were Vietnamese my name would be Kno Nguyen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleU
Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
TWLLM est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 21, 2007, 9:16pm   #7
Ishbu3116
Pope of Online Poker
 
Ishbu3116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,147
Reputation: 27
Ishbu3116 is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWLLM View Post
True, but the odds sometimes take a f*cking long time to say it, if they ever do get around to it.


BTW, I agree totally that most people who buyin short are just weak, but not in the same way. They're weak at post-flop play, not necessarily just 'stupid'.
Done correctly short buying can be a good strategy for tournament players who want to play cash games but suck at 'real' poker.
It also induces some people to call with weaker hands thinking the short stack is just pushing to pick up chips.
It's also good to take away implied odds for draws from other players, not that they aren't passing up value on their own draws as you pointed out.
Money is money, if it makes them money but not as good a poker player fine. If they are trying to improve they might as well play tournaments, no better short stack practice than that.
__________________
Ishbu's Blog is finally up...http://theishbu.blogspot.com Last Updated (05/12/0
Read about my Play Money Prop Bet http://www.pokertips.org/forums/showthread.php?t=59087
Ishbu3116 est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 21, 2007, 9:44pm   #8
Timbilo
Not violating T & C
 
Timbilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,403
Reputation: 404
Timbilo is just really niceTimbilo is just really niceTimbilo is just really niceTimbilo is just really niceTimbilo is just really nice
Default

When I'm at home I play either 25NL or 50NL full-ring cash tables.

When I'm at work I fire up 1-2 200NL tables for maybe an hour a day and buy in for 40 dollars ::gasp::

I play JJ+, AK, and will open for AQ or KQ in late position, possibly down to A-10 or 99+ in late position if I perceive the blinds to be tight.

I'm doing this for two reasons:

1. Bankroll management- I have the bankroll to play with the $40 (since I play up to 50NL) but don't have the bankroll for 200 dollars.

2. Lack of ability to make reads- since I am at work, my first focus has to be work. I cannot get reads on people's betting habits or card selection. To be honest, I'm only playing my cards and assigning to everyone a typical tight range of hands.

I continually rebuy to 40 each time the blinds pass me by too.

Typically I get involved in 1 big pot an hour. I don't have any exact statistics to give, but I win about 2/3rds of my big pots. You would be AMAZED at the lack of respect people give you just because you bought in short. Yesterday had QQ, raised to $8, get 1 caller. Flop is J, 6, 5. Guy checks, I push, he instacalls with pocket tens.

Today had pocket kings, raised to 8, got reraised to 18. Flop is k, 8, 6. I check (), guy puts me all in and turns over pocket jacks.

Usually for the rest of the hour I can win enough blinds so I'm not losing too much in blinds. When I have 3-4 limpers in front of me and I raise 5-8X from the button with A/Q I'm picking up enough blinds to last me for several orbits. If I get to above $50-$55ish I pick up and go to another table. Plus, if I CBET on a flop I miss with AK (not even going all in), I have a shot of driving out the one or two callers if they missed the flop.

Am I improving as a poker player? No. Is it the most intellectually challenging task? No. Does it serve as a welcome relief to the dulldrums of the afternoon and is it fun? Yes.

Finally, I should add that I'm a relatively young guy out of college in the past few years. Do I aspire someday to play at 100 and 200 NL? Yes. Bankroll-wise, I know it'll be a while and I've accepted that. My poker lot in life goes something like:
Grow the Bankroll, Withdraw to pay for Wife's health insurance, Grow the bankroll, Withdraw to pay for injured dog, Grow the bankroll..... (up next is to get maintenance on my POS car )

So, using the shortstack Chris Ferguson strategy is an way to grow the bankroll in what seems like a low risk/decent reward way. TWLLM hit it on the head that I'm denying my opponents implied odds to play their low pairs/suited connectors against me, so I'm not too worried about low cards on the flop when I hold high cards.

I hope the original poster sees at least some advantage to playing this way. Doing this is more productive than opening a 25 or 50 NL table and trying to play a wide array of hands in a variety of positions like I would do at home, but without a read on people. Plus, for what its worth its better for the FPPs as well.

Last edited by Timbilo; Feb 21, 2007 at 9:46pm.
Timbilo est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 21, 2007, 9:56pm   #9
Frogboy4L
spewing station
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Fading the flush draw
Posts: 1,497
Reputation: 0
Frogboy4L
Send a message via AIM to Frogboy4L
Default

granted that most people play pretty badly against shortstacks, I think it's more +ev to buy in full so that people are making relatively bigger mistakes against you when they stack off TPMK for a full buyin instead of 20 BBs, particularly since TPMK for 20 BBs is probably a reasonable play most of the time.

That actually makes me realize that shortstacking lower limits might unintentionally be making people play better against you. hm.

but yeah if you have some compelling reason to not buy in full for some reason and yet still want to gambol it's not awful.
__________________
Blogging again, updated frequently. Annotations of spew:

(the link works now)

frogboy4Lpoker.blogspot.com
Frogboy4L est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 21, 2007, 10:22pm   #10
jimmytrick
Professional
 
jimmytrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,248
Reputation: 395
jimmytrick is just really nicejimmytrick is just really nicejimmytrick is just really nicejimmytrick is just really nice
Default

"I continually rebuy to 40 each time the blinds pass me by too."


I very seldom get a good laugh but that line tickled the shit out of me.
__________________

jimmytrick est déconnecté   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 5:11am. vBulletin 3.7.4 Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.