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Old Feb 22, 2007, 7:03pm   #21
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EDIT: TWLLM and everyone else- please don't take my long in-depth posts as an insult to your intelligence or whatnot. I have a journalism degree and this long, in-depth writing style is just the way I roll when I write.
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And BTW, if you feel you have a better chance playing extremely short at one level instead of less short at another, then play the shorter stack. I just think that, ceteris paribus, it's better to work your way into full stack play so you that you can maximize your long-run earning potential. Short stack play limits profitability in cash games, but sometimes it may be your only chance for making money - it's up to you to decide.
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Old Feb 22, 2007, 7:18pm   #22
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read up on it... if u don like playen short then dont. however some people play better short and some play better deep. ..... thats that i guess......
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Old Feb 23, 2007, 1:07am   #23
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to follow up.....when you sit with a short stack for most, its because you dont want to/or cant make the tough decisions......like with the one guys KK.

when you sit with a bigger stack you have to "play poker"

you cant just push your AK preflop, like most shorties do
you cant always push a flush draw, like most shorties do
you can't play AA and KK all in, no matter what flops, like most shorties do

about it being "winning poker" or not

if you have 50 and the other guy has 200 which is the max in this example.

if he raises pre and you call with 1010, and he has AA. 10 hi flop. you play all in for your 50 and get paid off.

you leave 150 of his on the table. 150 that you missed

like i said in the first post, NL is about maximizing wins
so thats losing poker
and in the long run 98% of shorties come out on the short end
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Old Feb 23, 2007, 1:33am   #24
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@ Nikitis: I agree that sitting short can't maximise your edge or possible winnings but why can't you push a FD in the right situation with a big stack?
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Old Feb 23, 2007, 1:42am   #25
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I think we can reconcile you guys. It seems like you aren't arguing about the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Nikitis View Post
about it being "winning poker" or not

if you have 50 and the other guy has 200 which is the max in this example.

if he raises pre and you call with 1010, and he has AA. 10 hi flop. you play all in for your 50 and get paid off.

you leave 150 of his on the table. 150 that you missed

like i said in the first post, NL is about maximizing wins
so thats losing poker
and in the long run 98% of shorties come out on the short end
When the flop comes ATx, you save 150. Set over set is a bad example since you aren't "playing poker" as you say. There aren't any mistakes to be made, and therefore there isn't any money to be won or lost. A short stack will decrease variance with these hands with no effect on win rate.

Most people make lots of mistakes with stuff like top pair, for example. These mistakes are usually after the first flop bet. Thus if you are all in by the first flop bet, you probably haven't made a mistake (or not as big a one as you might've made in the next few bets) and will not lose money.

Shorstacking is basically a way to only play the half of the game that you're good at - preflop and flop. Thus poor player can play this strategy and expect a much better win rate than buying in deep.

No all bad players do this, though. In fact, most don't. Thus they lose a lot of their money on the turn and river. You need a deep stack to take advantage of the mistakes they are making later in the hand. Thus a good player loses value by not playing deepstacked against other, worse, deepstacks.

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Old Feb 23, 2007, 3:43am   #26
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1. I usually take the opportunity to fourbet AK all in preflop for 100BBs or so if I can get it.

2. Shortstacking can be +ev when you are at a table where the remainder of the table is deep, because deepstacks correctly play looser against each other and are big on implied odds. Shortstacking nukes their implied odds, but most people adjust poorly to this, particularly in hands involving other deep stacks. Indeed, I will play stuff like 66 to a shortstack's raise if I'm pretty sure the 70/4/1 fish in the BB is going to call as well, and will pay me off if I hit my set. Playing 66 HU with the shortstack is usually a mistake.

3. Competent shortstackers aren't playing 64 et. al. They're playing stuff like KT and are a lot more willing to felt it threehanded than someone 125BBs deep is.

4. Most deep stack players dislike shortstackers for pretty much these reasons. It's harder to exploit their edge.

5. Most people who buy in short, however, are stupid, and are doing it for the reasons Niki has stated. These people tend to be fish and are pretty easy money when you figure out what they're doing. However, they're probably not going to be as TAG as a good shortstack.

6. It's probably a bad idea to shortstack SSNL because you will find people who will stack off KT for a full buyin, and by buying in short you are making their plays better and not gaining anything, because they're not considering implied odds.

7. You would probably be better off table selecting better or learning how to effectively combat shortstacks when deep rather than ranting about how it "isn't poker."

8. I still think most people should cover the worst player at the table because that lets you get maximum value out of their mistakes, but I can see scenarios where I would do otherwise.
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Old Feb 23, 2007, 3:52am   #27
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I hate shortstacks
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Old Feb 23, 2007, 8:45am   #28
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Quote:
NL is about maximizing wins
Not for everybody. You can also work a lot on cutting your losses. You dont mention the fact that a short stack wont loose 100bb with set vs set or flush vs flush situations, not to mention things like top set vs hidden straights or the standard two pair vs set pots where people tend to loose a lot of money. The most a ss can loose on any given hand is 20bbs (ultra short strategy).

The short stack, in his own way, is maximizing wins. His maximum wins are when he gets all his stack in the middle with the best hand. Most of the time the shorty will have top pair good kicker, or an overpair, and get payed off by people pissed at him, calling with top pair no kicker, draws with no pot odds, or even ace high (he must be bluffin here..). Think of it this way: you hit top pair way more often than you hit a set.

Short stack also allows you to play way higher than conventional bankroll rules would. So, with something like a $1000 br, you'd normally play 0.25/0.5 nl. With a short stack you can play as high as 1/2$ nl. Even if you assume that the win rate you get at 1/2 playing short is 25% of what you'd get at .25/0.5 playing deep, it still is more profitable for you to play 1/2$(due to rakeback/fpps).

Im just adding some thoughts in here. Im not a big fan of playing short, and i actually hate short stacks at my table, since my slag style wont work that well against them (basically, i cant bluff them that well, and im not getting implied odds to play most of my hands).
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Old Feb 23, 2007, 6:41pm   #29
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a short stack wont loose 100bb with set vs set or flush vs flush situations,
They won't win 100bbs either. If you assume such scenarios are 0ev because of their reverse, all the short stack is doing is decreasing variance.
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Old Feb 23, 2007, 7:14pm   #30
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short stack is only good if you know what your doing with it, bottom line. There have been so many times where i have had an overpair or TPTK and get called for the remaining 40 dollars just becuase I am short stack. But i dont always play with a short stack, it depends with the table usually.
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