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Old Mar 15, 2007, 9:39pm   #11
Got 6 Aces
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Originally Posted by BubbleBoy View Post
Somebody pursuing a shortstack strategy for whatever reason is making a serious mistake foldint to a min-raise from an opponent in steal position.

People making such mistakes are not aware of the fact that they are playing a short stack strategy. They are simply playing bad.
Exploiting bad play by minraising is not a good choice IMVHO.

Nonetheless it is a valid point that short stacks (20-40BB) usually tend to give up their BB's more quickly. The reasons for that are partially apparent, and partially even game theoretically correct.

If thats what you want to talk about, why somebody (a decent player) would defend his BB less often with a short stack than the same player with a medium-high stack, I like the thread.

If you want to talk about minraising fish and gaining 10BB doing so, oh well.
Well this is where your inexperience shows. Poker is a game of edges and i personally spend a lot of time trying to develop different poker strategy's in accordance to what i come up against on the tables. Trying to defeat a short stack is an EXTREMELY important strategy to develop.

By short stack i mean 20BB's. The minimum you can sit down to the tables with. Raising to 10% of their stack at only a 2% cost from yours in a tactic that will triumph 2 out of 3 times makes it (+EV) which is the only thing every single poker player on this planet aims for. This is the reason it works so well against a 20BB short stack and not as well against a 30BB+ stack.

And yes i'm talking about a tactic that makes me 10BB's. Anything that gives you a guaranteed profit on the tables is good. Surely this is a universal thing? You're talking like you already have a surefire tactic that works. Would you like to share it with us please?

EDIT - Gemini?
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Old Mar 15, 2007, 10:14pm   #12
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Any kind of tactics against certain minimum stack players are totally futile - by this I mean the kind of player who is chasing a bonus at Party for instance, and all they care about is exposing as little of their bankroll to risk as possible. They know they can make a profit by playing no hands virtually, so the only time they do play is when they have one of their top 10, or top 6 starting hands. Just about every other hand is folded whenever there is a bet to be called, so what you do only affects them differently if they are in a blind, and you raise them.
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Old Mar 15, 2007, 10:56pm   #13
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that's what i tried to say, mikkeD. but my english isn't good enough...
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Old Mar 16, 2007, 12:07am   #14
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Originally Posted by MikkeD View Post
so what you do only affects them differently if they are in a blind, and you mini-raise them.
Edited Mikke

No point in risking an extra blind.

One thing i forgot to add, say they do flat call your miniraise. Obviously you'll now be folding to almost any bet unless you hit middle pair+. In this case i suggest a bet of 3BB's into the 4.5BB pot. This is enough so that the short stack is pretty much pot commited, if they call or push then they've got you beat and have made a grand total of 5BB's off you, if not then you've taken 2BB's off them this time instead of just the 1.
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Old Mar 16, 2007, 12:19am   #15
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Originally Posted by Got 6 Aces View Post
Edited Mikke

No point in risking an extra blind.

One thing i forgot to add, say they do flat call your miniraise. Obviously you'll now be folding to almost any bet unless you hit middle pair+. In this case i suggest a bet of 3BB's into the 4.5BB pot. This is enough so that the short stack is pretty much pot commited, if they call or push then they've got you beat and have made a grand total of 5BB's off you, if not then you've taken 2BB's off them this time instead of just the 1.
No need to edit my post - I think you miss the point. They are going to fold whether you min-raise them or raise them more, unless they have a top hand. My point was that your raise will make them fold in a blind where they would have seen the flop otherwise - and that is the ony time you will have an effect on what they do - i.e. you stop them checking. Almost every other hand is either a fold or a raise for the risk-averse bonus-chaser. Obviously you may as well min-raise to save yourself the extra in case they wake up.
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Old Mar 16, 2007, 12:42am   #16
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We're accidentally agreeing with each other without knowing. I know they're going to fold whether i mini raise them or raise more, that was the whole point of the post, to use a tactic with minimal investment to put pressure on these short stacks.

Open limping in LP against these fools is (-EV), they shouldn't be allowed to hit for free under any circumstances. And there's no point in folding any hand either. If mini-raising any 2 cards in itself is a (+EV) move then it's the only thing that should be done.

Them waking up with a hand worthy of a re-shove is miniscule.
Them having a mediocre hand they're willing to play OOP knowing they have to donate 10% of their stacks is also minscule.

Another added benefit of this short stack killing strategy is that it's only ever an OPEN mini-raise. Obviously you're not going to get the chance to open raise every orbit when the BB is a short stack so it masks the tactic a little bit. Also the fact that these poopheads play about 10 tables at once helps.

Poopheads strategy - Play 10 tables with a strict regimental tactic of PF shoving with a set % of premium hands. Fold to ANY raise. They don't even look, they can't, they're playing so many tables at once they just look at their cards, see they're not getting a free flop and give their blind up.

I swear to God my tactic is good. Shit, with the responses i've got i should have kept the bastard idea to myself.
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Old Mar 16, 2007, 1:26am   #17
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what kind of pressure? in most cases someone is raising PF. so you simply fold with your short-stack. would be stupid to try to protect blinds. you're not even thinking about playing a hand that's not one of the few allin hands. so where should the pressure be?

why do you waste your time thinking about how to play against shortstacks? they won't make you neither rich nor poor.
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Old Mar 16, 2007, 1:51am   #18
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what kind of pressure? Any raise in poker creates pressure, so mini-raising to 10% of the stack creates pressure.

in most cases someone is raising PF. so you simply fold with your short-stack. I KNOW!!! That's the whole point, i raise you fold. Lovely, thanks for your money.

would be stupid to try to protect blinds. It's not stupid to protect your blinds. I protect my blinds sometimes but that's because i'm sat with 100+ BB's in my stack giving me the implied odds to defend.

you're not even thinking about playing a hand that's not one of the few allin hands. so where should the pressure be? This sentence makes no sense but please don't try to explain it. Your innane jabber is offending me greatly.

why do you waste your time thinking about how to play against shortstacks? Because i'm a learning poker player. If you don't think about what you're doing on the tables then you end up being a crap player, like you.

they won't make you neither rich nor poor. Eh? Why are you bringing definitions of rich and poor into this. Any (+EV) move in poker makes you richer.
You're an idiot. Don't reply to my posts anymore.
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Old Mar 16, 2007, 3:50am   #19
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Aces: if you're in the CO to the short stack's big blind, do you still only min raise? (I'm guessing yes, btw) Surely that allows the button and the sb (assuming neither is a shortstack) to call you with a wide range. Doesn't that impair the effectiveness of the strategy?
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Old Mar 16, 2007, 11:18am   #20
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I didn't make this thread to make it look like i'm waging a personal war against short stacks. When i sit to the table i'm playing all 8 players, not just one. But you need your tactics to differ slightly from player to player. For example a wider PF range against the table fish. The thing is i'd rather be playing with a table of deep stacks that i can double up off, rather than having to contend with a short stack push-bot. And i thought this feeling was mutual amongst deep stack post flop poker players.

There's nothing stopping anyone from sitting to the short stacks left and just avoiding them but that isn't what i want. The idea in poker is to induce mitakes out of your opponents and if you can continually get another player to give up their BB when they have you beaten a lot of the time then that's a lot of mistakes you're taking advantage of.

If you're sat in the CO and you have loose or agressive players in between you and the short stack then use some common sense and leave the frigging table. There's nothing to keep you there and there's shit loads of other tables available. If i'd have complicated the post further with talk of players interupting the open riase then we'd be here all day, i just wanted to lay down this flava for the benefit of the other posters here.

There is one final advantage i forgot to mention. The mini-raise in this scenario acts as a miniature version of the squeeze play. The deep stacks on the button or in the small blind have seen that you've mini-raised a short stack which makes it look like you want some action with your hand and don't want to scare anyone off. With the possibilty of the short stack shoving they'll almost always just choose the safer option and chuck away their J9 type hands.

And jokeslayer i appreciate responses like your last one a lot more than the original one. I'm not here toi make friends i'm here to learn and have a bit of fun on the boards. I don't mind getting into a heated debate with a fellow poker player about a topic because it works to my benefit to be either proven wrong, or to expand my lateral thinking. I do not appreciate jealous nit-pickers wasting my time with snide little comments just because they don't like me. Like i said, this ain't a popularity contest.
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