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Old Apr 18, 2007, 9:20pm   #1
cpsof95
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Default 12 minutes of pain

I think I just had the most terrible downswing I've ever had in my poker career, and I want to share it with you. The clock times indicate when the hand was played.

22:19 - I raise with AQ pre-flop, a short-stack maniac goes all-in, I call him. He beats me with his K7o. - $3 lost.

22:20 - I join a multiway pot with JTs from LP. Big blind raises and since everybody calls, I have good odds to call too. I hit middle pair and open-ended straight draw on the flop. I call the bets. Turn goes checked as the board gets 3-flushed. River gives me the straight, but makes the board 4-flushed. I'm committed to call the value bet. - $12 lost.

22:21 - The maniac from the first hand goes all-in again pre-flop and I call him with my AK. He beats me with QTs. - $10 lost.

22:22 - Another maniac kills my AJ with 88. - $5 lost.

22:27 - I chase my flush and gutshot straight draw in a 3-way pot. - $4 lost.

22:30 - I overplay my AJ after hitting ace on the flop as I thought the villan was drawing for the flush instead of having me beat. - $12 lost.

22:31 - My QQ gets beaten by 99 which hit a set on the flop. - $10 lost.

I lost about $60 (300 big blinds) in 12 minutes. I was having a nice session, but all the good work went down the toilet in no time.

I really don't know what's going on here. My stats show I've played about 12000 hands of NL20. With the first 7000 hands I won about $400, but with the last 5000 hands I've lost about $100. The first hands I played loose and somewhat crazy game, but lately I have tightened up and tried to make less donkey moves. The result has been a disaster.

When I played crazy game, people happily paid me off when I hit good hands. Now that I play tight, I don't get much action unless I'm beat.
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Old Apr 18, 2007, 9:48pm   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpsof95 View Post
I really don't know what's going on here. My stats show I've played about 12000 hands of NL20. With the first 7000 hands I won about $400, but with the last 5000 hands I've lost about $100. The first hands I played loose and somewhat crazy game, but lately I have tightened up and tried to make less donkey moves. The result has been a disaster.
It takes time to learn a new style. Also, don't forget that your style should reflect the table you're at. Sometimes it's better to be wild, sometimes it's good to be a rock. Keep at it. Downswings are all in the game, sadly.
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Old Apr 18, 2007, 9:56pm   #3
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It sucks when it happens slowly like this and it hurts more. Unfortunatley i lost $400(WAY out of my bankroll) in one hand at the Venetian. I was in shock for awhile, then the pain came.

thaanks
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Old Apr 18, 2007, 10:05pm   #4
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You could always be TWLLM. IIRC he was something like zero for twenty in set over set confrontations (both with overset and underset) at 400 and 600 NL.

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I'm committed to call the value bet.
This probably wasn't actually true. You're not pot committed when you know you're beat.

Post some HHs (the hands where you actually have a decision to make; no one cares about beats unless you got runner runnered off quads in a 135k pot, in which case post so we can lol) and see if you have leaks or if you're just running bad. My downswings tend to involve both, but I'm usually not playing as well as I think.
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Old Apr 18, 2007, 11:13pm   #5
cpsof95
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Ok then, here's the hand where I overplayed AJ. The villan (scknylmz) here is pretty tight and solid player, so his pre-flop call from the small blind made me a bit worried. But once the ace hit the flop, I was happily donking all my money away. I'm not even asking, if I played this stupid. Just make fun of me, please.

***** Betfair Poker Hand History for Game 199289323 *****
NL $0.10/$0.20 Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, April 18, 19:30:31 GMT 2007
Table Sodium 05 6-max (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of active players : 6
Seat 1: Alonso9 ( $8.70 )
Seat 2: cpsof95 ( $22.96 )
Seat 3: scknylmz ( $37.96 )
Seat 4: slippery15 ( $9.10 )
Seat 5: Mazenemo ( $10.52 )
Seat 6: bootyluv ( $5.17 )
scknylmz posts small blind [$0.10]
slippery15 posts big blind [$0.20]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to cpsof95 [ Js, Ah ]
Mazenemo folds
bootyluv calls [$0.20]
Alonso9 folds
cpsof95 raises to [$0.90]
scknylmz calls [$0.80]
slippery15 folds
bootyluv calls [$0.70]
** Dealing Flop ** [ As, 6s, 8s ]
scknylmz checks
bootyluv bets [$0.20]
cpsof95 raises to [$3]
scknylmz calls [$3]
bootyluv folds
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
scknylmz bets [$5]
cpsof95 calls [$5]
** Dealing River ** [ 8h ]
scknylmz bets [$5]
cpsof95 calls [$5]
** Showdown **
scknylmz shows [ 8d, 8c ] four of a kind, Eights
cpsof95 mucks [ Js, Ah ]
** Hand Conclusion **
scknylmz wins $27.65 from main pot with four of a kind, Eights
************ Game 199289323 ends ************

And here's the hand where I got too deep with my JTs. Having position and large stacks in the pot gave me a good reason to see the flop here. Hitting something nice would mean a big payday. I made my straight on the river, but the board became 4-flushed. I think I had to call that river bet anyway. It was $22 in the pot and $6 to call.

***** Betfair Poker Hand History for Game 199283390 *****
NL $0.10/$0.20 Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, April 18, 19:20:36 GMT 2007
Table Delphinus 02 9-max (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of active players : 9
Seat 1: BobFleming ( $10.93 )
Seat 2: detjacks ( $11.69 )
Seat 3: Caross ( $11.02 )
Seat 4: PotWolf ( $6.18 )
Seat 5: nio21 ( $37.85 )
Seat 6: stevie st ( $160.10 )
Seat 7: cpsof95 ( $47.15 )
Seat 8: buffie ( $15.12 )
Seat 9: kinord ( $21.17 )
BobFleming posts small blind [$0.10]
detjacks posts big blind [$0.20]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to cpsof95 [ Jh, Th ]
Caross folds
PotWolf folds
nio21 calls [$0.20]
stevie st raises to [$0.40]
cpsof95 calls [$0.40]
buffie folds
kinord folds
BobFleming folds
detjacks raises to [$1.40]
nio21 calls [$1.20]
stevie st calls [$1]
cpsof95 calls [$1]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, 9c, Tc ]
detjacks bets [$3.60]
nio21 calls [$3.60]
stevie st folds
cpsof95 calls [$3.60]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
detjacks checks
nio21 checks
cpsof95 checks
** Dealing River ** [ 8c ]
detjacks goes all-in
detjacks bets [$6.69]
nio21 folds
cpsof95 calls [$6.69]
** Showdown **
detjacks shows [ Ac, Ah ] a Flush
cpsof95 mucks [ Jh, Th ]
** Hand Conclusion **
detjacks wins $28.39 from main pot with a Flush
************ Game 199283390 ends ************
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Old Apr 19, 2007, 2:11am   #6
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I like the way you played the flop in the 1st hand but I think I'd have let it go on the turn. Call me weak Tight but I fold JTs in the second hand w/ that action before you. As played, fold on flop, definitely don't call the river bet.
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Old Apr 19, 2007, 4:32am   #7
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Your hand analysis (the lists given above) isn't all that helpful for us to analyze the play, other than to point out as Frogboy did, that it seems unlikely that you were obligated to call a value bet with a straight on a 4-flush board.

And, for the record, even after that little 'streak' Frogboy mentioned, I've remember a recent session where I lost 5 buyins (500 bbs) in like half an hour without putting my money in bad (or at least not dominated in the one pot I wasn't ahead). It can happen, even if you did nothing wrong (although doing wrong things makes it more likely).
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Oh, and obviously, TWLLM, we'd all rather you just ruled with an iron fist of nittiness and made all decisions without consultation, but that goes without saying, right?
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Old Apr 19, 2007, 8:12am   #8
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take the opportunity to improve your play and reevaluate some of your concepts, then you can win if you lose. ok, this might have been an expensive lesson, but i think overbetting and wrong calls are the most dangerous sources of bad decisions overall. you can easy tilt this way. if something like that happend, take a break, review the HH, analyse your play and after a while come back to the table.
somebody said, saved money is won money. especially in cash-games you will put your money only into a pot if you think you are ahead or at least have so many outs, that there is a reasonable chance to hit an out and win the pot with a monster. "pot-commited" doesnt exist in my view (at least in this context), especially not in cash-games. This is because you should view your play as an investment over a longer period of time, not at a single spot. so you could use that money that goes burned for a lost hand, in another situation where chances are better and so you can play proftiable over time. doesnt mean not to take risks now and then, but spending money for the second best hand is simply bad. in a tournament i would say pot-commited would mean, that you spend a very big part of your stack for a hand, so that if you lose you'll be so crippled, that you wont survive any longer anyway.

the second thing i want to stress is to respect you opponents. Some might be maniacs, some might be donkeys, some might be very apt to adjust their play, it certainly pays to give them credit for their hands, just watch the signals (check HH how they played their hands) and do not put money in your opponents pockets for no reason, but your judgement about their abilities, since from time to time they may still get the nuts.
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Old Apr 19, 2007, 8:27am   #9
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Quote:
I've remember a recent session where I lost 5 buyins (500 bbs) in like half an hour without putting my money in bad (or at least not dominated in the one pot I wasn't ahead).
You're not the only one.

re: those hands: fold the turn with AJ, because you beat Ks Xx and not by much. You see a set or a better ace a lot here. Or obv the flopped flush. Fold the river for sure. Fold the flop with JT because your hand isn't well disguised, isn't to the nuts, and might well have only six outs anyway.

Mercury's post is solid; saving bets is not just a limit concept.

And yeah, Kc said a while ago "in a cash game you're never pot committed, you're just being offered appetizing odds." It's very true.
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Old Apr 19, 2007, 3:56pm   #10
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Some good advice above, so be sure to take note.

Don't confuse "downswing" with "poor play" or "on tilt". They are not the same thing. A downswing is a mathmatical sequence where you play perfectly and the cards go against you. You can't do anything about a downswing other than continue to make the right decisions and wait for probability to catch up with you again.

But you can do a lot about "poor play" and "on tilt". And I think a combination of the two is what you have experienced here. Work on your decision making, don't overcommit to small pots with vulnerable hands (AJ) and don't chase draws when you could well be drawing dead or slim (TJs).

And when you feel frustrated because you got sucked out on by some maniac shortstack, don't chase lost money (the whole session).

Lots of valuable lessons from this session. Remember that often the worst opponent you face at the poker table is yourself.
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