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Old Nov 24, 2007, 1:04am   #1
chrissy
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Default Pot Control against Donkey Player who won't lay down hand?

I was playing a live 3-5 game and picked up JT of spades on the button. There was no raise and I limped in too. Here are the stacks of the players involved:

Me: $2000
Guy A: $1300
Guy B: $500

The flop is AQ7 rainbow and checked all around. The turn came a K of club, which gave me the nut straight and put a club draw out there.

Guy A, whom from I observed is a donkey, bet out $20. Guy B, who is a loose gamblng donkey, called. I raised to $100.

When it got back around to Guy A, he re-raise it to 200. Guy B calls (cold calls $200 when you're sandwiched between two raisers... wow). Then I thought about what I should do...

The only hand I'm afraid of right now is JT of clubs... the nut straight with the redraw. But I highly doubt anyone had that. I put Guy A on two pair or a set, and Guy B on a flush draw. I decided to push to make it obvious that I had the nut straight and to take it down. I didn't think Guy A would call $1100 for a full house draw. And if he did call... I'm an 80% favorite if he has a set.

Guy A thought for a while and to my dismay, he said "OK I gamble" and he called. Guy B said "I'll gamble too!" and called.

The board paired on the river, of course, and Guy A showed pocket Aces for Aces full. He limped in with AA and flopped a set and slow played it, and obviously couldn't lay it down. Guy B had a club draw and missed.

I was pretty pissed cause I was up a lot. I had turned my buy in of $500 to $2000 and was ready to leave. I really didn't want to get involved in any big pots unless I had the nuts.

When I'm up against donkey players who may not lay down their hands, do you think it's a better strategy to control the pot? By that, I mean simply calling instead of raising/pushing on the turn. If the board paired on the river, I can fold and not risk a big chunk of my stack.

Against good players, I might push on the turn because they won't pay me off on the river if the board doesn't pair. However, against a bad player like Player A, I think he still would've paid me off if he didn't fill up on the river, so I could've waited until the river before I decide to get my money in.

How would you have played this hand?
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 1:17am   #2
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Confused about pot size here, but...

If betting denies them the right odds to outdraw you, and they'll call anyway, I think you should do it.

Something to (maybe) think about is if the calling station is between you and the other guy (or if you know that the other guy knows the station is a station). Will betting and being called by the station leave the other guy with correct odds?
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 1:25am   #3
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You went all-in with the nuts and got called.

Important strategy tip: this is a good thing!
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 1:26am   #4
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the pot was limped so it didn't get big until the turn. by the time i pushed, guy A had to call 1100 ito a $1700-ish pot ($200+$200+my all in). he didnt have the right odds and the guy on a flush draw acted behind guy with a set.
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 1:28am   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeSAL View Post
You went all-in with the nuts and got called.

Important strategy tip: this is a good thing!
That's what you'd think... but I wonder if controlling the pot is a better strategy. Is that something that experienced players who don't want to risk their whole stack would do. Just because you have the nuts, pushing isn't necessarily always the right move if you get called... unless it's on the river when there's no more cards to come.
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 1:47am   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissy View Post
That's what you'd think... but I wonder if controlling the pot is a better strategy. Is that something that experienced players who don't want to risk their whole stack would do. Just because you have the nuts, pushing isn't necessarily always the right move if you get called... unless it's on the river when there's no more cards to come.
Pushing with the nuts and getting called isn't always to best play? I wish I knew how to post an LOLcat. Someone help me with this!

Controlling the pot is something done with a strong, but not overly so, hand. It's not done with the nuts.

Just because playing for less $EV to quell variance would have worked here, doesn't mean it's correct. Thank you for for your time.
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 1:55am   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokunori View Post
Pushing with the nuts and getting called isn't always to best play? I wish I knew how to post an LOLcat. Someone help me with this!

Controlling the pot is something done with a strong, but not overly so, hand. It's not done with the nuts.

Just because playing for less $EV to quell variance would have worked here, doesn't mean it's correct. Thank you for for your time.
my nuts were vulnerable. but yea, i know i probably made the right play. i've just run sooo bad though and expect to get sucked out so that's why i try to control the pot. i try to keep my game low variance.


how's that.
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 2:08am   #8
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You were just unlucky if you would of won i don't think you would of questioned your play
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 2:20am   #9
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Obviously if your goal is to make the most money then you should put it in. Obviously if your goal is to not lose a big chunk of your stack then get up and leave. I suppose you could have called if you really wanted to limit your variance, but what happens when the board pairs and he bets out big, are you going to fold the nut straight? It would be tough and I think you could do it but I think a lot of the time you're going to make a crying call and you won't get the money of the guy who missed his flush draw, decreasing your calling odds.
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Old Nov 24, 2007, 3:26am   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissy View Post
my nuts were vulnerable. but yea, i know i probably made the right play. i've just run sooo bad though and expect to get sucked out so that's why i try to control the pot. i try to keep my game low variance.


how's that.
Probably made the right play?

I don't see that you yet understand the gravity of your error. If you look at poker as one life time session, which it is, and a winning player's edge as modest, which it is, surely you can see that 100% of the types of players that sacrifice such huge EV+ spots in an effort to reduce variance are 100% losing players 100% of the time.

Probably made the right play?
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