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Old Nov 27, 2007, 7:41pm   #1
chefski
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Default Continuation bets

I know there have been several threads on this subject, but I seem to have fallen in to a random variance of opposites for making or not making CBs. So, I'd like to explore what nature of flops warrant to make CBs or not...

Generally, if I led out with the raise, I will make CBs under the following circumstances:

- If I hit my hand, but not a monster/nuts
- If I feel my opponents missed
- If I feel my opponents think I missed to a rag flop but hit it big
- If I need represent I hit my hand and reduce the field
- If I hit, but it is a potentially dangerous flop and I need to pay for info
- If I there is an overcard(s) to my pair and I need more info
- If I feel there are potential draws and I need my opponent to pay for the turn
- If in late position and I get all checks to me
- If it is early in the game and need to establish image
- If I am HU to either of the blinds

Where I do NOT make CBs:

- If I miss the flop badly and there are more than 3 others in the hand that likely hit
- If I completely whiff and have no potential (i.e. straights, flushes)
- If I had a mid-pair and there are three overs that likely hit someone
- If I hit it big and need to lure in takers
- If I plan to check-raise when OOP
- If I am HU and need to disguise my big hand
- In late pos. and on a huge draw to see a free card
- When on a complete bluff/steal pre-flop and have too many players in the pot
- Changing it up if I have made several in a row
- If I missed and am short-stacked and likely to get called down

What am I missing...?
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Old Nov 27, 2007, 8:18pm   #2
seedload
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chefski View Post
What am I missing...?
I think you are missing something fundamental.

Everything in the list that you post starts with "If I". At a fundamental level, making a continuation bet has more to do with your opponent then it does with you, IMHO. If your bet will make the opponent fold more often then the pot is paying (adjusted for any chance of you or them improving) then you should continuation bet.

The other fundamental thing that is missing from your list is position. How can you ignor this? You should continuation bet with position more often then without. Adding some infrequent check/raise bluffs is an good method for recovering some of the losses that the lower frequency of OOP continuation betting costs (again MHO).

So, factors you consider are, number of opponents (one is best), texture of the flop (do the opponents have these cards), what your opponents think about you (image), position, how your opponents "fight back", and the chances of your hand improving. I don't think this complex mix of factors is easily expressed in a list.

I don't like your idea of making a list here. I prefer to just thing about whether I think the bet has a high enough chance of winning the pot each time I consider making it. Taking a beat and thinking is a good thing for several reasons IMHO.

Hope this helps in some way.
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Old Nov 27, 2007, 9:35pm   #3
chefski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seedload View Post
I think you are missing something fundamental.

Everything in the list that you post starts with "If I". At a fundamental level, making a continuation bet has more to do with your opponent then it does with you, IMHO. If your bet will make the opponent fold more often then the pot is paying (adjusted for any chance of you or them improving) then you should continuation bet.

The other fundamental thing that is missing from your list is position. How can you ignor this? You should continuation bet with position more often then without. Adding some infrequent check/raise bluffs is an good method for recovering some of the losses that the lower frequency of OOP continuation betting costs (again MHO).

So, factors you consider are, number of opponents (one is best), texture of the flop (do the opponents have these cards), what your opponents think about you (image), position, how your opponents "fight back", and the chances of your hand improving. I don't think this complex mix of factors is easily expressed in a list.

I don't like your idea of making a list here. I prefer to just thing about whether I think the bet has a high enough chance of winning the pot each time I consider making it. Taking a beat and thinking is a good thing for several reasons IMHO.

Hope this helps in some way.
Well, I appreciate the input and I agree...Although I start with "If I...", I mention position, players, HU play and my opponent throughout the list...I am very aware of that. I take in to account many circumstances and too lengthy to run thru all scenarios here, but a starting point with general situations to consider...more to explore I'm sure.
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Old Nov 27, 2007, 9:50pm   #4
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Seedload made some excellent points already. There were a few points in your list that I might play differently though. The ones I didn´t quote are the ones I agree with, or that speak for themselves. This is just how I play them, I might be full of it, but I'm sure someone will correct me if that's the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefski View Post
Generally, if I led out with the raise, I will make CBs under the following circumstances:

1) If I hit my hand, but not a monster/nuts
2) If I there is an overcard(s) to my pair and I need more info
1) I don't always cbet these in position. If you hit top pair it is often difficult to get three streets of value out of it. Your hand is not always good enough to play a very big pot with, so you're often forced to check at least one street. I sometimes check behind on the flop with top pair hands to get more value out of other weak hands, because people will rarely call three streets when they're weak. Secondly, if you face a very aggressive opponent your cbet might get raised and you'll be in trouble. It sucks to have to play a big pot with one pair hands, so I'll sometimes check and bet or call the turn.

2) If there are overcards I am not always cbetting for the same reasons. Our hand can't stand a raise and I want to get to showdown cheaply if i can.

Note that the default play is to cbet when you hit, but I sometimes do any of the above to mix it up and to get to showdown cheaply with marginal hands. For this to work you should be in position and the flop should be relatively dry (ie. little or no draws).

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefski View Post
Where I do NOT make CBs:

1) If I completely whiff and have no potential (i.e. straights, flushes)
2) If I hit it big and need to lure in takers
3) If I am HU and need to disguise my big hand
4) In late pos. and on a huge draw to see a free card
1) You should cbet almost always in this situation. There is no other way to take the pot down for you. Just cbet the flop and give up when faced with resistance.

2) I don't like slowplaying, it is usually counter productive. Playing big hands fast is often more deceptive than playing it slow. I need to be very sure that it is more profitable to give people some free cards to slowplay.

3) Same as before. The other reason is that cbetting should be your default play. This means that you should bet on flops that missed you as well as on flops you hit. If people see you cbetting with air than it it is probably better to just bet when you hit big as it is just as deceptive as slowplaying.

4) If I hit a decent draw I usually cbet it. It is the perfect time to semi-bluff. If you get called you have outs to hit your hand on the turn. Another advantage is that your opponent is likely to give you a free river if you bet the flop. If you don't hit your draw on the turn you equity is reduced so you have the option to take a free card or to try a second barrel.
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Old Nov 28, 2007, 1:52am   #5
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A huge draw is like a set and you should try to get all ur money into the middle on the flop. Its +EV because most of the time ur opponent will fold and if he calls ur like 40-60. Another big reason is it disguses your big hands, ur opponent doesn't know if you have a set or just a draw. This will cause him to call more allins with overpairs or TPTK which is something you want. If you'd only played 2pair+ fast than ur opponent will have an easy time folding 1 pair.

As for Cbets, the default play is to c-bet and you should only deviate from that with reason. Unless the board is very scary like 89T 2 suits Im C-betting 1 opponent, even on that board I'll c-bet alot of the time. With 2 opponent I'll c-bet sometimes, depending on board and opponents and with 3+ not too often without something.

Against good opponents you want to be consistant in ur C-bet ratios. Like if you always c-bet when you miss but 30% of the time you check the flop that will be picked up on overtime. If you check 20% of the time around 20% of the time you hit you should check. If ur up against a moron making consitant play doens't matter.

Last edited by KS_Perfection; Nov 28, 2007 at 1:58am.
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Old Nov 28, 2007, 3:42am   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCage View Post
Seedload made some excellent points already. There were a few points in your list that I might play differently though. The ones I didn´t quote are the ones I agree with, or that speak for themselves. This is just how I play them, I might be full of it, but I'm sure someone will correct me if that's the case.



1) I don't always cbet these in position. If you hit top pair it is often difficult to get three streets of value out of it. Your hand is not always good enough to play a very big pot with, so you're often forced to check at least one street. I sometimes check behind on the flop with top pair hands to get more value out of other weak hands, because people will rarely call three streets when they're weak. Secondly, if you face a very aggressive opponent your cbet might get raised and you'll be in trouble. It sucks to have to play a big pot with one pair hands, so I'll sometimes check and bet or call the turn.

2) If there are overcards I am not always cbetting for the same reasons. Our hand can't stand a raise and I want to get to showdown cheaply if i can.

Note that the default play is to cbet when you hit, but I sometimes do any of the above to mix it up and to get to showdown cheaply with marginal hands. For this to work you should be in position and the flop should be relatively dry (ie. little or no draws).



1) You should cbet almost always in this situation. There is no other way to take the pot down for you. Just cbet the flop and give up when faced with resistance.

2) I don't like slowplaying, it is usually counter productive. Playing big hands fast is often more deceptive than playing it slow. I need to be very sure that it is more profitable to give people some free cards to slowplay.

3) Same as before. The other reason is that cbetting should be your default play. This means that you should bet on flops that missed you as well as on flops you hit. If people see you cbetting with air than it it is probably better to just bet when you hit big as it is just as deceptive as slowplaying.

4) If I hit a decent draw I usually cbet it. It is the perfect time to semi-bluff. If you get called you have outs to hit your hand on the turn. Another advantage is that your opponent is likely to give you a free river if you bet the flop. If you don't hit your draw on the turn you equity is reduced so you have the option to take a free card or to try a second barrel.

This is a damn good post.

Edit: I am not sure that I agree with it in all respects but there is a lot of solid thinking here.
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Old Nov 28, 2007, 12:16pm   #7
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Not Continuation Betting also tends to induce a bluff on the next street a large percentage of the time. So if you flop top pair and bet you may fold out a middle pocket pair. But if you check behind you may be able to induce a bet out of the pair on 4th street on that is the only way for you to get value.

One of the biggest improvements in my game over the last year is continuation betting less. I used to just raise and bet every flop and it used to work way more than it should but the players have gotten better over the years and so I have to be more creative. Also checking the flop and raising a turn bets works a very large percentage of the time as well. That and by continuation betting less it has started to cause my opponents to lead out at me OOP and I have taken advantage of getting an extra street of value out of good hands I would not normally get.
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Old Nov 28, 2007, 3:57pm   #8
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Don't take my post out of context, read all the good stuff above first...

I'm not sure what one means by missing the flop *completely*, but this cbetting suggestion has come up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCage
1) You should cbet almost always in this situation. There is no other way to take the pot down for you. Just cbet the flop and give up when faced with resistance.
Just my five cents: I have a tendency to C-bet if I miss the flop but is given at least one strong backdoor draw (especially when checked to in position). If raised, I fold obv.

On the turn, if the backdoor becomes a 8+outs draw, I might get odds (and good implied odds!) to call a bet or can semibluff against weak opponents.

IMHO, c-betting with a backdoor is slightly better than c-betting with air, since you are not necessarily out of the hand on the turn if called.

Note, however that the flop texture should be cbet-bluff-friendly, which means rainbow/disconnected to avoid running into strong draws.
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Old Nov 29, 2007, 2:02pm   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishbu3116 View Post
Not Continuation Betting also tends to induce a bluff on the next street a large percentage of the time. So if you flop top pair and bet you may fold out a middle pocket pair. But if you check behind you may be able to induce a bet out of the pair on 4th street on that is the only way for you to get value.
I await BubbleBoy's response to this, considering the slating he gave me when I suggested this line on a paired board with TPTK.
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Old Nov 29, 2007, 2:02pm   #10
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As for cbetting, someone did some statisitical analysis of their cbets (when they missed the flop completely) and found that a cbet is more likely to work when:

There is a high card on the board (Ace being the most effective);
The board is paired;
The board is monotone;
The board is not very connected or two suited.
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