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Old Jan 15, 2008, 4:50pm   #141
Fredrik
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If you by "scientifc fact" mean something that implies absolute certainty, then there isn't. There are only theories that are consistent with the evidence to various degrees. For example, Einstein's theory of gravity is consistent with more evidence than Newton's, and is therefore a better model of reality, but not even Einstein's theory can be correct in the absolute sense.

What I would consider "scientific facts" are things like the fact that general relativity is consistent with the evidence to an extraordinarily high degree.

But I guess that's not really what we're talking about. Let me give you an example of something that may be a causal primary. Send one photon through a semi-transparent mirror after putting detectors on both sides of the mirror. Quantum mechanics tells us that the state of the photon before detection can be described mathematically as

"reflected" + "transmitted"

i.e. it's not "either reflected or transmitted", it's something else entirely. But if we do this, exactly one of the detectors will signal that it has detected the photon. If it's the one behind the mirror, it's tempting to conclude that the detection occurred because the photon was transmitted, but that can't be correct because the photon was never in the "transmitted" state. It has been suggested that the detection event is a causal primary. This may or may not be true, but I don't have a good reason to dismiss the possibility.

Oh yeah, maybe I should have mentioned that you shouldn't feel offended by the fact that I'm answering your post between answering ridiculous claims made by creationists. I just figured I should give those posters who will understand my replies a higher priority.
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Old Jan 15, 2008, 6:50pm   #142
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Frederick, awesome post.
I should brush up on my quantum mechanics , and such a post as this is
.....can't say it excatly in English: invites me to is the best proximation


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Old Jan 15, 2008, 9:10pm   #143
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I watched a television program where an astronomer was detailing how they could use the Hubble space telescope to look back in time like 13 billion years. I don't know much about this science, but they must be gathering light created that long ago to literally look at our Universe in it's infancy.

Now how would this be possible if all we know is only thousands of years old and not billions? Is all of science in on the big lie?

I don't think anybody is arguing against "God" per se, rather are taking issue with the strict and inflexible religions run by powerful men. When I was a kid going to Catholic school I refused to accept the concept of purgatory and I would always get into trouble with the nuns. My parents would sit me down and I would still refuse to accept it. I stood fast that purgatory didn't make any sense. Why would a loving God make me suffer for X amount of thousands of years before getting into Heaven? Where was the line that I could not cross regarding how I conducted my life that kept me out of Hell but didn't get me right in to Heaven? I said that God wouldn't do that to people.

Lo and behold the church eliminated the concept of purgatory during Vatican II. All of those priests and nuns and adults who demanded I believe and that condemned me for basically being a pain in their ass standing up for what I thought was right, were wrong. Of course they were. So much about religion doesn't hold up to even a child's simple scrutiny, and not neccesarily the major tenents of the religions but the BS that accompanies basic right from wrong.

Someone once told me that God has instructed us to eat fish on Fridays during Lent. I said "oh really?" I asked them if they knew that Lenten Fridays were once a day for fasting but the fishing based economy of the Meditteranean from "olden times" couldn't handle the populace not consuming the fish for a whole day so the church deemed fish acceptable to eat on those days. This has nothing to do with the word of God but everything to do with money and economics. Now if you wish to eat fish instead of a juicy steak as a sacrifice for whatever you believe then fine, however to declare fallacy as the word of God happens way too often in all religions. That is why so much "faith" is required to belong, because common sense doesn't fit into their scheme. I can do more to satisfy God by picking up litter and helping my neighbors on a Sunday morning than sitting in a building and chanting slogans will ever accomplish.

I believe in the Ten Commandments. You lose me after that.
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Old Jan 15, 2008, 9:38pm   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axis of Evil View Post
...use the Hubble space telescope to look back in time like 13 billion years. I don't know much about this science, but they must be gathering light created that long ago to literally look at our Universe in it's infancy.

Now how would this be possible if all we know is only thousands of years old and not billions?
One possible explanation would be that the creator didn't just create hundreds of billions of galaxies with hundreds of billion stars, but also created light between the stars and made sure it was all going in the right directions and with the right intensity so that we would be able to see all the stuff he created.

This is just one of many examples showing that if the universe was created, then the creator put a lot of effort into hiding that fact from us.

The church of the flying spaghetti monster are more explicit about this than the "real" creationists:

Quote:
What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage.
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Old Jan 15, 2008, 9:39pm   #145
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You guys gotta realize something, anything involving politics and religion will always be ongoing and will cause some of the biggest fights and wars the earth will and has ever seen. Its the most heated thing ever and will most likely never be settled, even though someday I hope it is.

I tried to lighten the mood by making a joke, even involving the almighty chuck norris and on this board thats like a guy whos been in prison for 25 years passing up the chance to have a go at a supermodel...so that tells you how heated these debates can be.

Since this is a gambling board we should start taking bets as to how many pages this goes to till it dies.

I'll make an attempt to posting another joke below. Oh by the way, I saw that show on looking back 13 billion years into the universe's past. Very interesting stuff. Its on the history channel called, "the universe" or something like that. They do shows all the time involving the cosmos in some way.

George Carlin
On Religion

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!
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Old Jan 15, 2008, 10:09pm   #146
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It is pretty pointless to discuss these kinds of issues. Most of us form our beliefs based on life experiences and peer beliefs. If you switched Abe Lincoln and Jeff Davis at birth, do they still play the same role in history? No. More than likely Lincoln would have been a politician defending the south and Davis a northern general invading. Thats the way it works.

When I was the age of most of you I would have weighed into the discussion on the side of evolution and I would have ridiculed those who expressed God based beliefs.

Things change and I am now older than most encountered dirt. You got to do more than scrape the surface to get down to dirt my age. Get a shovel.

Now, I believe in God. Some days, I wish I didn't. Some days, I just go outside and shake my fist at him and curse him. But, I believe. Can't get away from it.

What happened? Stuff. Life. Times. It will surely happen to some of you.

So, evolution versus intelligent design. I am not really part of the creationist/ID crowd. I don't know the arguments, I don't want to attack anyone over this stuff.

The evidence for the proposition that man, and apes, evolved from a common ancestor. I am no expert (and out of school for a long time), but I have done some reading. This is the best theory available to science. But to say it is fact requires a leap of faith IMO. Accepted science changes all the time. New facts emerge and everything gets reshuffled.

Fossil finds are interpreted and accepted and then refuted. There are proofs, there is no proof.

Nor does it matter. If suddenly over the course of a few years numerous fossil finds reveal all the data necessary to fill in the missing links, cross the eyes, and dot the tees; and, during that timespan, scientists discover the process for making life from non-life so irrefutably that the FDA approves home chemistry kits that enable all to conjure up life from scratch in their ten gallon acquariums, then, what would I say?

"ah, so THATS how God did it"

In the meantime I am not going to get all that worked up by this evolving scientific theory.
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Old Jan 16, 2008, 12:07am   #147
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If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

God is not really an explanation, only a non-explanation. It is impossible to gain information from non-information so God as an explanation is a dead end. When we have said that the reason for something is that 'god did it that way' there is no way to understand it any further. We just shrug our shoulders and accept things as they are. To explain the unknown by god is only to explain how it happened, not why. If we are to investigate the world and build our views of life from the world, we cannot assume a god. Because adding god as an explanation leaves as many, if not more questions than it explains, god has to be removed with Occam's razor if we are serious in investigating the world.

http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/nogo...od.htm#reasons
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Old Jan 16, 2008, 10:22pm   #148
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Excellent post.

A thing IDers cried about was the eye.
No way this could be accomplished only by evolution.
(they used the watchmaker analogy: if one piece of a watch is missing, the whole watch is disfunctional. So it must be a Creator to have disigned the eye from scratch)
But what was predicted by the theory came trough:
scientist have now a clear view as to how the evolution of the eye has been.
(a reference: http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/..._vs_squid.html but google and you find many more)
Reaction of ID: lets move the goalposts, and hammer now on different things where there is not sufficient evidence (yet) so open for debate.
But that is just the beauty of science (for me): trying to figure out where we come from and how, thus seeing we and nature are all 'woven' together, heck, we are nature. The Greek knew: only by knowing your past, you will know your future.
I very much enyoed reading a discussion about were the hagfish fits in the evolutionary model.

On the other hand you have the ID and Creatonism crowd. They use among other things a comic book, which puts obviously more weigh than all evidence science can come up with:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1051/1051_01.asp

I bet it will save some souls and so it has the stamp off approval by MRV.
Tbh, i really like the way they portrayed the theacher to meet their goals.


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Old Jan 25, 2008, 11:16am   #149
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Cool, video on how evolution works:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeTssvexa9s


enjoy

RR
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No, I've been avoiding it. Although I adore Spongebob and consider him a sterling role model for all of our fine students at UMM, I have a dread of the Hasselhoff. I'm still traumatized from the Spongebob movie, which was fabulous until the moment the Hasselhoff showed up — and now I have a fear that if I attended the theme park, the Hoff might suddenly show up and offer me a ride. Or a Whopper.


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