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Old Jan 09, 2008, 6:26pm   #11
jimmytrick
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Genetic manipulation sort of runs against the grain of intelligent design I think. So, folks who consider non-evolutionists stupid probably won't have problems with designer babies?

Designer babies, can't be called intelligent design or evolution, what are we going to call that?

Now, I don't like my first name and carried a bit of a grudge over it for some time. I am wondering exactly how I might feel if my parents choose my hair color.

And how will these genetically engineered persons view those of us cooked up the old fashioned way? Inferior I suppose, as we will be dumber, smaller, and uglier.

It would seem likely that they, being selectively superior, should and would support the timely termination of all non engineered breeding stock.

For the sake of the species.

And the constitution will have to be amended to take out that silly bit about being created equal.
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Old Jan 09, 2008, 6:31pm   #12
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The term "evolutionist" is kind of silly in this context. We're not part of some club or something. There is no legitemate alternative theory, just rampant speculation.

This is not a nagging question for science. Google it.

IIRC, skin pigmentation is a product of environment. We all came from Africa and as we settled in different environments our skin pigmentation changed accordingly.
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Old Jan 09, 2008, 6:39pm   #13
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The term "evolutionist" is kind of silly in this context. We're not part of some club or something. There is no legitemate alternative theory, just rampant speculation.

This is not a nagging question for science. Google it.

IIRC, skin pigmentation is a product of environment. We all came from Africa and as we settled in different environments our skin pigmentation changed accordingly.
Are you saying it was a product of evolution?
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Old Jan 09, 2008, 6:53pm   #14
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didnt want to hijack the ron paul thread so i decided to make a new thread to ask my american friends here a simple question.

Q: Do some people in america rly believe in intelligent design? i mean like politicians or other people that get time on big tv stations to talk about that? if yes, does the audience laugh their asses off? because i'm quite sure that would happen in europe. i mean wtf? srsly that is something that is very hard to understand for a eurodonk like me.
Not only some people, but a large portion of them still do. Bush and the people that are in his same religious group believe that Jesus is going to be coming back to earth within the next two or three generations and the apocalypse is near (hence why America fights so hard to protect Israel, since a lot of them believe that the end comes when the jews have reclaimed the holy land) . This is one reason you see us lag behind other countries in terms of environmental issues (why protect what is going to be gone in a couple of generations).

I personally don't care what someone else believes in, but I do think it is very harmful to have someone who thinks the end is near in a position of power, since he will over look important issues that more far sighted men might now.

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To me, if you look at the vastness of the universe, the idea that there's a god that created us in his image is not just ridiculously absurd, it's rather arrogant.

But I think the Atheists are a touch arrogant themselves claiming that there simply is *not* a higher power. I'm actually agnostic. I figure we'll never understand what started everything, and we should be ok with that.
Agian I am surprised (pleasantly) that someone with such a different lifestyle then my own takes my words right out of my mouth. Well said Skeptix.
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Old Jan 09, 2008, 7:04pm   #15
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Are you asking me if whites and blacks are different species? No, they're not. But skin pigmentation does demonstrate certain facets of evolution.

As for your Gattaca bit, what's your point? Religion and the value of human life need each other to persevere? Sorry to break it to you, but humans have long since demonstrated their disdain for the value of human life.

Also, please replace "evolutionist" with "rational thinker". This is not a debate. There are not two sides to this issue. Those that don't believe in evolution are outside the realm of science. Believe what you will, but once you have chosen to leave the realm of science, please do not try to sneak back in.
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Old Jan 09, 2008, 7:04pm   #16
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One of the problems that science cannot solve is the idea of the first mover. Logical/rationalist attempts to solve this issue date back to Plato/Aristotle and other ancient philosophers, but the fact remains that reason dictates that a chain of caused events requires an initial cause.
The problem with the first mover argument is that it gives you more questions than it answers. So if there was a first mover - how did he come into existence in the first place. Why did something have to first move the universe but not the first mover? The first mover also would have to be more complex than the thing he creates. Now if the generation of the universe by chance was highly improbable - the first mover being there before it is even more so. The first mover argument won't solve the problem, it will turn it into a circle.

Many of these problems were written down by Richard Dawkins in his "God Dellusion". I didn't finish the book as it becomes a bit redundant but there are some very good arguments against "Intelligent Design" in there that make very much sense. I would recommend to read the core chapters with an open mind.

The concept of God as it prevails in the big religions is an inherently flawed one for me. Why do so many people need a living Christ or whatever God to believe in? Is it mainly because they don't know what comes after death and need the believe that life goes on to not be afraid of death?
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Old Jan 09, 2008, 7:06pm   #17
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Ok I'll bite. What you talked about in your original post is not evolution. Natural selection (in the evolutionary sense) does not really happen anymore in human society AFAIK.
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Old Jan 09, 2008, 7:20pm   #18
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Well, its seems more likely that there was intervention in the evolution of the planet than to take the view that it all sorted out on its on.

There just isn't evidence of the major leaps from the sea to the land and air or evidence of the development of the human species. Its not just a missing link, but multitudes of missing links, unless you theorize that advances were made by startling and revolutionary mutations. And that is something you would have to take by faith, evolution is just a theory after all.

We can easily take the position that aliens have visited here from time to time and tweaked the various species. After all, we have achieved genetic engineering. That theory makes more sense than macroevolution. And it would fit with ancients myths to some extent.

So if the Earth turns out to have been merely a science project by a seventh grader from a planet called Heaven located somewhere outside our current view, whose first name is God, and believes in the concept of harmony and peach, well, what would be the harm in that?

Skep is right, we really don't know.

Evolution should be taught in schools as the prevailing theory, other viewpoints should be taught as well, given that fact that throughout human history the vast majority of people on the Earth has believed in the Gods and may well be right.

Arrogance is an evolutionist looking down his nose at a creationist, both having a theory and neither proof.
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Old Jan 09, 2008, 7:22pm   #19
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The concept of God as it prevails in the big religions is an inherently flawed one for me. Why do so many people need a living Christ or whatever God to believe in? Is it mainly because they don't know what comes after death and need the believe that life goes on to not be afraid of death?

This is a question that has been asked a lot throughout history. While I cannot claim to know the real reason, I can give you the reasons why my normally agnostic views have been shaken in the past.

The main reason is indeed because of death. For me it is not even my own death that bothers me, but the loss of my loved ones. When you are grieving for someone that was dear to your heart, it can be unbearable to comprehend that you are never going to see your loved one again and that most likely after you and yours are gone, no one else will remember that person either. When you are dealing with all of this it can be a much needed comfort to throw your self at the mercy of an idea that comforts you with promises of ever lasting being with those you love.
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Old Jan 09, 2008, 7:26pm   #20
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The concept of God as it prevails in the big religions is an inherently flawed one for me. Why do so many people need a living Christ or whatever God to believe in? Is it mainly because they don't know what comes after death and need the believe that life goes on to not be afraid of death?
I think the core of the issue is a desire to understand the world in a way that makes us comfortable with it. Sit back for a second and try to imagine nothing, and I mean nothing. Imagine there was no such thing as matter, there is no such thing as time. Most of you are probably picturing what you would think of as "empty space", and I bet there is a color (black for most, white for some). Now try to step beyond that and imagine nothingness without a color. If your head asploded, I apologize.

Now go watch The Universe on the History channel a bunch, or watch a Nova special, or perhaps read up on quantum physics. Somehow grasp the enormity of the universe, the things we don't know and probably never will. Grasp the chaotic nature of the vast majority of the universe. Learn about black holes, quasars, etc. You think 105 degrees in the summer is hot? Imagine 9000 degrees. I think you get the idea (or hope you do at least).

The world is much bigger than we are and even just our little tiny speck of a speck of a speck called Earth can seem perplexing. For some, myself included, comfort comes from the pursuit of knowledge, not the assumption of it. Others, unfortunately, need to form a world view that they can understand. A nice friendly one that cares about them (or in other cases, a cruel nasty one that wants to punish all the evil folk).

The conclusions that religious folk come to not only seem silly to me, but actually try to take away from the natural awe of the universe.

I also think there's a rather large contingent of people that don't *really* believe this stuff, but feel that it's "better safe than sorry". But intellectual laziness doesn't bother me nearly as much as intellectual dishonesty.
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